[Political Interest]

I heard from somewhere that lowland Scots were mostly aristocrats and that the highlanders were the working classes. Is there any truth to this or is it just nonsense? For example, were the majority of lowland Scots working class like highlanders?

[oppose_obama]

[Potemkin]

I heard from somewhere that lowland Scots were mostly aristocrats and that the highlanders were the working classes. Is there any truth to this or is it just nonsense?

It's bullshit. The Highlanders were Gaelic-speaking descendants of the Celts and Vikings, while the Lowlanders were English-speaking descendants of Celts, Vikings and Anglo-Saxons. It was primarily an ethnic division rather than a class division. Before the Industrial Revolution, most people in both the Highlands and Lowlands were tenant farmers; after the Industrial Revolution, most Highlanders were crofters and most Lowlanders were working class. The aristocracy were, and remain, a vanishingly small percentage of the population in both the Highlands and the Lowlands.

For example, were the majority of lowland Scots working class like highlanders?

The majority of Lowland Scots are indeed working class or lower-middle class, but the majority of Highland Scots were not working class, but were crofters, a type of tenant farmer.

[Political Interest]

Something off-topic and offensive, that Cartertonian deleted.

It's bullshit. The Highlanders were Gaelic-speaking descendants of the Celts and Vikings, while the Lowlanders were English-speaking descendants of Celts, Vikings and Anglo-Saxons. It was primarily an ethnic division rather than a class division. Before the Industrial Revolution, most people in both the Highlands and Lowlands were tenant farmers; after the Industrial Revolution, most Highlanders were crofters and most Lowlanders were working class. The aristocracy were, and remain, a vanishingly small percentage of the population in both the Highlands and the Lowlands.

Thank you Potemkin. Maybe I was reading something from some Gaelic nationalists who are annoyed about the clearances of the 18th century.

The majority of Lowland Scots are indeed working class or lower-middle class, but the majority of Highland Scots were not working class, but were crofters, a type of tenant farmer.

I see and most lowlanders are Presbyterians as well except for those Catholics who mostly came from the highlands?

There seems to be a real theme among Scottish nationalists who want to associate Scottish nationality with the Gaelic culture and highlanders. It is quite inaccurate considering that a good number of those who live in the Scottish lands are not highlanders.

[Potemkin]

There seems to be a real theme among Scottish nationalists who want to associate Scottish nationality with the Gaelic culture and highlanders. It is quite inaccurate considering that a good number of those who live in the Scottish lands are not highlanders.

Indeed. In my experience, most Scottish nationalists have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of the history of their own country - they have swallowed all sorts of cultural and historical myths hook, line and sinker. They also seem to have a remarkable talent for ignoring basic economic and political realities. It makes debating with them utterly pointless.

[layman]

I heard from somewhere that lowland Scots were mostly aristocrats and that the highlanders were the working classes. Is there any truth to this or is it just nonsense?

As already said, total nonsense.

The Highlanders were Gaelic-speaking descendants of the Celts and Vikings, while the Lowlanders were English-speaking descendants of Celts, Vikings and Anglo-Saxons.

Well considering the picts pretty much merged with the Gaels. I would guess the highlanders also had a lot more pict in them, considering the geography.

It was primarily an ethnic division rather than a class division.

And religion to a lesser extent.

They also seem to have a remarkable talent for ignoring basic economic and political realities. It makes debating with them utterly pointless.

Yeah I find this too. There was a thread on POFO where we argued about this with RTF I think and he kept insisting EVERYTHING that Salmond wanted, he would get.

I mean literally.

- being in the top 5 richest countries
- getting into EU and getting money from them (despite being norway style rich).
- getting out of EU fishery's policy
- keeping the pound
- getting all the oil and 9% of the debt
- 16 old to vote in referendum
- any option scots want to be in that referndum
- Energy independance by 2020 (first in the western world)

All these things would come true and there was no doubt in his mind ..

[Potemkin]

Yeah I find this too. There was a thread on POFO where we argued about this with RTF I think and he kept insisting EVERYTHING that Salmond wanted, he would get.

I mean literally.

- being in the top 5 richest countries
- getting into EU and getting money from them (despite being norway style rich).
- getting out of EU fishery's policy
- keeping the pound
- getting all the oil and 9% of the debt
- 16 old to vote in referendum
- any option scots want to be in that referndum
- Energy independance by 2020 (first in the western world)

All these things would come true and there was no doubt in his mind ..

If these people are given their heads, then it's all going to end very badly for Scotland, you mark my words....

[Quantum]

Indeed. In my experience, most Scottish nationalists have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of the history of their own country - they have swallowed all sorts of cultural and historical myths hook, line and sinker. They also seem to have a remarkable talent for ignoring basic economic and political realities. It makes debating with them utterly pointless.

Why do the SNP have an obsession with Gaelic if all the good poetry from poets like Robert Burns were written in Scots, not Gaelic? If anything they should promote Scots instead of a language that only several tens of thousands of people speak.

[Baff]

It's bullshit. The Highlanders were Gaelic-speaking descendants of the Celts and Vikings,.

Gaelic speakers are Irish descendants.
The Celts parlez Franglais. The Vikings, Norwegian style gibber. Erscee Doo or whatever they call it.

[Potemkin]

Gaelic speakers are Irish descendants.

Most people in Scotland, whether Highland or Lowland, are Irish descendants. Dalriada was the proto-Scottish state, which Kenneth MacAlpine ultimately united with the Picts, thus founding the nation called 'Scotland'. The Lowlands later experienced large influxes of Anglo-Saxons, whose culture and language became dominant. Ethnically speaking, however, the Anglo-Saxons did not displace the original population of the Lowlands; they merely became culturally dominant.

[Poelmo]

I heard from somewhere that lowland Scots were mostly aristocrats and that the highlanders were the working classes. Is there any truth to this or is it just nonsense? For example, were the majority of lowland Scots working class like highlanders?

Lowland Scotland covers about half of Scotland, aristocrats in most societies comprised maybe 1% of the population, you do the math...

[Captain Sam]

Why do the SNP have an obsession with Gaelic if all the good poetry from poets like Robert Burns were written in Scots English, not Gaelic? If anything they should promote Scots English instead of a language that only several tens of thousands of people speak?

"Scots" isn't a language. Some Scottish nationalists like to pretend that their accent constitutes a language.

[Quantum]

"Scots" isn't a language. Some Scottish nationalists like to pretend that their accent constitutes a language.

If Scots is not a language but merely a dialect of English, then surely Norwegian is not a language but a dialect of Danish? The differences between the languages are similar. Scots is descended from Middle English, not Modern English and can't be called a dialect of the latter.

[Captain Sam]

I don't speak a Scandinavian language so I couldn't compare, but if "Scots" is a language, then so is "American". The wikipedia article is very misleading.

[layman]

Ill go with whatever argument means 'American' isnt a language ...

[Doug64]

IIRC, the Scots-Irish that settled much of Appalachia were Lowland Scots that came to the American colonies by way of Ireland, not many aristocrats among them. Not that they didn't have their own impact, Thomas Sowell argues that the Scots Irish borderer culture seriously influenced Southern culture, and from them to their slaves and on to Black ghetto culture.

[Political Interest]

To me it seems there was always a big divide in Scottish history between the lowlanders and highlanders. It seems like the lowlanders were always more pro-English and Protestant while the highlanders were Catholics and anti-English.

[Thompson_NCL]

Well the highlands were primarily Catholic and the lowlands were Protestant, indeed. But defining their positions in terms of England does a great disservice to all involved. The conflict had more to do with dynasties and religion than nationalism, which didn't really exist in any true sense before the Napoleonic wars. That was really what set the stage for a concept of nationhood.