Slavery - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Suntzu
#14820570
Hey, if Africans hadn't sold each other into slavery, slavery in the U.S. would have never existed except among the Indians. 8)
#14820587
Suntzu wrote:Hey, if Africans hadn't sold each other into slavery, slavery in the U.S. would have never existed except among the Indians. 8)

Wrong!

“They were of two sorts, first such as were brought over by masters of ships to be sold as servants.
Such as we call them my dear,’ says she, ‘but they are more properly called slaves.”


—Daniel Defoe, Moll Flanders

It appears that 200 years of White slavery in America has been completely obliterated from the collective memory of the American people.


:lol:
#14820651
Yep, the masters of those ships went into the African jungle and caught 'em.

The point is, @Suntzu , since you're too slow to understand it, that when Ingliz wrote "white slavery in America", he was talking about white slavery in America. Slaves who were white. And thus he disproves your idiotic "if Africans hadn't sold each other into slavery, slavery in the U.S. would have never existed except among the Indians". The fuller quote from Moll Flanders is:

My mother was a mighty cheerful, good-humoured old woman —I may call her old woman, for her son was above thirty; I say she was very pleasant, good company, and used to entertain me, in particular, with abundance of stories to divert me, as well of the country we were in as of the people.

Among the rest, she often told me how the greatest part of the inhabitants of the colony came thither in very indifferent circumstances from England; that, generally speaking, they were of two sorts; either, first, such as were brought over by masters of ships to be sold as servants. 'Such as we call them, my dear,' says she, 'but they are more properly called slaves.' Or, secondly, such as are transported from Newgate and other prisons, after having been found guilty of felony and other crimes punishable with death.

'When they come here,' says she, 'we make no difference; the planters buy them, and they work together in the field till their time is out. When 'tis expired,' said she, 'they have encouragement given them to plant for themselves; for they have a certain number of acres of land allotted them by the country, and they go to work to clear and cure the land, and then to plant it with tobacco and corn for their own use; and as the tradesmen and merchants will trust them with tools and clothes and other necessaries, upon the credit of their crop before it is grown, so they again plant every year a little more than the year before, and so buy whatever they want with the crop that is before them.

https://dailylit.com/read/196-moll-flanders?page=34


And the first slaves of Europeans in the Americas were the indigenous Indians:

The Indians, Columbus reported, "are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask for something they have, they never say no. To the contrary, they offer to share with anyone...." He concluded his report by asking for a little help from their Majesties, and in return he would bring them from his next voyage "as much gold as they need ... and as many slaves as they ask." He was full of religious talk: "Thus the eternal God, our Lord, gives victory to those who follow His way over apparent impossibilities."

Because of Columbus's exaggerated report and promises, his second expedition was given seventeen ships and more than twelve hundred men. The aim was clear: slaves and gold. They went from island to island in the Caribbean, taking Indians as captives. But as word spread of the Europeans' intent they found more and more empty villages. On Haiti, they found that the sailors left behind at Fort Navidad had been killed in a battle with the Indians, after they had roamed the island in gangs looking for gold, taking women and children as slaves for sex and labor.

Now, from his base on Haiti, Columbus sent expedition after expedition into the interior. They found no gold fields, but had to fill up the ships returning to Spain with some kind of dividend. In the year 1495, they went on a great slave raid, rounded up fifteen hundred Arawak men, women, and children, put them in pens guarded by Spaniards and dogs, then picked the five hundred best specimens to load onto ships. Of those five hundred, two hundred died en route. The rest arrived alive in Spain and were put up for sale by the archdeacon of the town, who reported that, although the slaves were "naked as the day they were born," they showed "no more embarrassment than animals." Columbus later wrote: "Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold."
...
When it became clear that there was no gold left, the Indians were taken as slave labor on huge estates, known later as encomiendas. They were worked at a ferocious pace, and died by the thousands. By the year 1515, there were perhaps fifty thousand Indians left. By 1550, there were five hundred. A report of the year 1650 shows none of the original Arawaks or their descendants left on the island.

The chief source-and, on many matters the only source-of information about what happened on the islands after Columbus came is Bartolome de las Casas, who, as a young priest, participated in the conquest of Cuba. For a time he owned a plantation on which Indian slaves worked, but he gave that up and became a vehement critic of Spanish cruelty. Las Casas transcribed Columbus's journal and, in his fifties, began a multivolume History of the Indies. In it, he describes the Indians. They are agile, he says, and can swim long distances, especially the women. They are not completely peaceful, because they do battle from time to time with other tribes, but their casualties seem small, and they fight when they are individually moved to do so because of some grievance, not on the orders of captains or kings.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html
#14820670
Both likely partially true. Indentured servitude was common in the early days of the colonies/early U.S. I have never heard of prisoners be sent to the U.S. only Australia.

As far as slavery and Indians, the Indians enslaved each other and the Europeans, especially the Spanish attempted to enslave the Indians. It didn't work out very well because they were susceptible to Western diseases and didn't last very long.

As far as the Atlantic slave trade, Africans were sold into slavery by other Africans. These were captives from tribal warfare, excess children, criminals or just villagers the local chieftain sold to raise cash. On the coast were Arab slave traders. A western ship, many times own by a Jew, would pull in and pick up a load.
#14820693
Suntzu wrote:A western ship, many times own by a Jew...

"Much of the historical evidence regarding alleged Jewish or New Christian involvement in the slave system was biased by deliberate Spanish efforts to blame Jewish refugees for fostering Dutch commercial expansion at the expense of Spain. Given this long history of conspiratorial fantasy and collective scapegoating, a selective search for Jewish slave traders becomes inherently anti-Semitic unless one keeps in view the larger context and the very marginal place of Jews in the history of the overall system. It is easy enough to point to a few Jewish slave traders in Amsterdam, Bordeaux, or Newport, Rhode Island. But far from suggesting that Jews constituted a major force behind the exploitation of Africa, closer investigation shows that these were highly exceptional merchants, far outnumbered by thousands of Catholics and Protestants who flocked to share in the great bonanza.

To keep matters in perspective, we should note that in the American South, in 1830, there were only 120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves. Even if each member of this Jewish slaveholding elite had owned 714 slaves—a ridiculously high figure in the American South—the total number would only equal the 100,000 slaves owned by Black and colored planters in St. Domingue in 1789, on the eve of the Haitian Revolution."

-- David Brion Davis, Sterling Professor of History Emeritus at Yale University and author of a trilogy on slavery, the first part of which won the Pulitzer in 1967 and the second of which won the National Book Award in 1976.


:lol:
#14820721
ingliz wrote:"Much of the historical evidence regarding alleged Jewish or New Christian involvement in the slave system was biased by deliberate Spanish efforts to blame Jewish refugees for fostering Dutch commercial expansion at the expense of Spain. Given this long history of conspiratorial fantasy and collective scapegoating, a selective search for Jewish slave traders becomes inherently anti-Semitic unless one keeps in view the larger context and the very marginal place of Jews in the history of the overall system. It is easy enough to point to a few Jewish slave traders in Amsterdam, Bordeaux, or Newport, Rhode Island. But far from suggesting that Jews constituted a major force behind the exploitation of Africa, closer investigation shows that these were highly exceptional merchants, far outnumbered by thousands of Catholics and Protestants who flocked to share in the great bonanza.

To keep matters in perspective, we should note that in the American South, in 1830, there were only 120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves. Even if each member of this Jewish slaveholding elite had owned 714 slaves—a ridiculously high figure in the American South—the total number would only equal the 100,000 slaves owned by Black and colored planters in St. Domingue in 1789, on the eve of the Haitian Revolution."

-- David Brion Davis, Sterling Professor of History Emeritus at Yale University and author of a trilogy on slavery, the first part of which won the Pulitzer in 1967 and the second of which won the National Book Award in 1976.


:lol:


You need to do a little reading on the Triangle Trade. The Dutch and Portuguese traders/ship owners were mostlyhere Sephardic Jews.
User avatar
By ThirdTerm
#14820839
Image

You need to look at genetics of Africans and slave traders were primarily Afro-Arabs (hg J) who colonised the continent. Sub-Saharan Africans were victims of the Arab conquest and enslaved Africans were sold in the towns of the Arab World. It can also be said that it was the Arabs who invented the slave trade and started transporting enslaved Africans as the "merchandises". Sharia law prohibited slavery involving other Muslims and slaves came mostly from Africa in the modern period as a result.

About 1% of individuals likely to identify as only of European descent have a Y chromosome or mtDNA haplogroup associated primarily with sub- Saharan Africa. We estimate that, overall, 3-4% of 23andMe customers with predominantly European ancestry have genetic patterns suggesting relatively recent (within last 10 generations) ancestry tracing to Africa. This fraction is far lower than the genetic estimates of European ancestry of African Americans, which is closer to 20%. This finding is consistent with the social history of the United States, wherein individuals with at least one ancestor of African descent were considered to be black. However, the analysis indicates that a small percentage of “mixed race” individuals were integrating into the European American community 200 years ago and earlier, prior to and during the era of slavery in the United States. Anecdotal evidence indicates that individuals discovering DNA evidence of African ancestry have been prompted to conduct genealogical research to search for the identity of their African ancestors.8-10
https://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/upl ... tain-1.pdf
User avatar
By ingliz
#14820862
Suntzu wrote:You need to do a little reading...

If one were to inquire more neutrally into what role Jews played in the Atlantic slave trade, and not rely solely on material "Prepared by The Historical Research Department [of] The Nation of Islam", one would find that it was a very small one when the trade reached much greater volume, in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.


:)
User avatar
By Suntzu
#14820883
ingliz wrote:If one were to inquire more neutrally into what role Jews played in the Atlantic slave trade, and not rely solely on material "Prepared by The Historical Research Department [of] The Nation of Islam", one would find that it was a very small one when the trade reached much greater volume, in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.


:)


I'm sure the Jews are blameless in the Atlantic slave trade. While they played a major role historically as merchants and traders they bypassed the slave trade.
User avatar
By MistyTiger
#14820893
Suntzu wrote:Hey, if Africans hadn't sold each other into slavery, slavery in the U.S. would have never existed except among the Indians. 8)


No. You forget about sexual slavery. There are always pimps and whorehouses that enslave young men and women. Those men and women stay because they feel like they have no other option in life which is so sad. This kind of slavery does not discriminate. The sex slaves are of all different races.
User avatar
By AFAIK
#14820923
My understanding is that west Africa became the main source of slaves because;

1- It already had slave markets and it's easier to tap into existing markets than to create new ones.
2- Africans had developed some immunity to tropical diseases and fared better in the plantations than those from Europe.
3- Race based slavery is easier to enforce since any runaways can't blend into the crowd.
4- Race based slavery is easier to justify in a country whose founding documents proclaim that, "all men are created equal."
User avatar
By The Immortal Goon
#14820952
Virtually every society had slaves at one point or another.

What made the African slave trade unique was the development of racial slavery instead of POWs, other religions, or other more traditional types of slavery.

This was from the development of huge monocrop plantations. Initially the natives were kept in slavery strictly as non-Christian slaves. The trouble was when conversion occurred, it was prohibited by the pope to keep Christians as slaves; and after a while, slavery of the natives themselves was questioned by the Vatican; in no small part because of the deaths to disease it caused. And, generally, a preference for a more feudal order than the large scale merchant system that was developing.

Africans were immune to the same diseases Europeans were. After the Portuguese had opened relations with much of Africa, African Christians were regarded as human with the same rights of their aristocracy as everyone else. There were bishops and priests from Kongo in Europe just as there were from France.

The expanding plantations needed more space labour to keep a profit. So they needed more and more slaves from, say, Kongo. When there weren't enough, someone would hire a bunch of Africans to go grab a bunch of other Africans that wouldn't have people asking questions. In time, for the Europeans, status and religion meant less than race. Blackness was a sign of slavery.

You can trace this in the corespondent between the Kongolese aristocracy and the pope. In previous generations, European merchants would bow before a King of Kongo. Then they'd buy slaves; then they'd start kidnappijg people; then even members of the royal family; and generations later it would be completely collapsed.

It wasn't the Africans having invented slavery or something, it was the development of a profit instead of manoral motive that demanded more and cheaper labour.

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