The American Civil War, day by day - Page 13 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14995770
March 25, Monday

Rumors and reports from Charleston are thick; the crisis is not only mounting by becoming somewhat muddled.

Colonel Ward Hill Lamon, acting as a messenger for the Federal government, confers with Governor Pickens and General Beauregard.
#14995804
Doug64 wrote:What I find interesting is how racial prejudice is dressed up as “science!”—a view that would last for generations to come (only really killed by the Holocaust), and a lesson people need to remember today.


The whole race and IQ debate shows that this is still a thing.
#14995812
Pants-of-dog wrote:The whole race and IQ debate shows that this is still a thing.

People keep trying to resurrect 'scientific' racism, usually with little to no success. My personal feeling is that the historical moment for such an ideology has come and gone. It started in the early 19th century and it died in the mid-20th century, because the political, economic and social reasons for its existence came and went.
#14995815
I think it will have some lasting power with some of the reactionary right.

I say this because the continued change in demographics (i.e. more ethnic diversity in the developed world) is bringing up certain fears of loss of privilege and power. And certain pundits on the right are capitalising in this fear by selling them books and videos that vindicate their fears. These books and videos will use these “scientific” arguments to vindicate the consumers’ feelings of innate superiority.

Self help with a swastika.
#14995819
Pants-of-dog wrote:The whole race and IQ debate shows that this is still a thing.

There are genes that influence a constellation of outward physical characteristics that are perceived as "race," and genes that influence personality, including IQ. Racial prejudice generally assumes that the former and the latter are pretty much the same, but the actual degree of overlap, if any, is still an open question.
#14995919
March 26, Tuesday

President Lincoln meets long with his Cabinet and others on both appointments and the growing crisis.
#14996322
March 28, Thursday

President Lincoln submits some fifty appointments to the Senate before it adjourns and holds his first state dinner. That night General Scott tells the President that he recommends evacuation of both Fort Sumter and Fort Pickens.

Governor Pickens tells the South Carolina Convention that six hundred men will be needed to hold the Charleston Harbor forts.
#14996458
March 29, Friday

Deposed Texas governor Sam Houston refuses to support any move of Federal forces to reestablish him as governor. It is the last major act of the frontier leader’s public life.

“I desire that an expedition, to move by sea, be got ready to sail as early as the 6th of April next” to attempt to resupply and perhaps reinforce Fort Sumter—President Lincoln has made his decision after many opinions and consultations. Forts Sumter and Pickens will be held. The Cabinet has reversed its stand—Seward is still against trying to hold the fort; Chase and Welles are in favor of holding and reinforcing; Smith is still in favor of evacuation; Blair remains in favor of holding on, and Bates writes, “I think the time is come either to evacuate or relieve it.” Thus opinion is in large part changed. Where previously the vote had been five to two against holding on, now three to two in favor, with Bates hedging and Cameron not recorded.

Mississippi ratifies the Confederate Constitution.
#14996801
March 31, Sunday

President Lincoln orders a relief expedition to go to Fort Pickens, Florida. At the same time, it is rumored in Washington that Fort Sumter will be evacuated. So at least the Confederate commissioners believe after their contacts with Seward through Justice John A. Campbell. Lincoln, of course, has made his decision to maintain Federal hold on the fort.

In Texas, Fort Bliss is yielded by the Federals.
#14996805
Potemkin wrote:Indeed, the Second World War transformed the world - Nazism, and its military defeat, lanced the boil of 'scientific' racism and radical traditionalism which the Confederacy embodied.

So scientific racism as opposed to say the religious racism of the Mormons or Orthodox Judaism? Why must we tear down the statues of Confederate Generals but statutes of racist bigoted conmen like Joseph Smith and Bingham Young are fine?

But before considering the question of scientific racism, I think its helpful to consider the question of scientific sexism. So a classical so called "scientific" sexist belief is that men are hindered by biology from having babies, rather than recognising that the only reason men don't have babies is because thousands of years prejudice, of all the dead generations of bigots weighing like a nightmare on the brains of the living. I must confess I do sometimes have thoughts of "scientific" sexism myself.

So scientific racism would be considering the possibility that say the Bambenga people might have a significantly measurably low intelligence than say Germans. That that intelligence difference might significantly hinder the development of their societies and that when integrated into western societies might seriously effect their ability to gain certain roles within society that require, or are highly correlated with, high intelligence (as measured), due to the huge magnifying effect of the Bell Curve on the extremes of the probability distributions.

Its important to note here that a male chauvinist pig might consider women to have an equal or even marginally higher average intelligence to men, but a significantly lower variance.

Anyway the Nazis strike me as almost the opposite of the typical "scientific" racist. Rather than attributing the incredible success levels of Germany's Jews to a higher level of inherited intelligence, the Nazis concocted some bizarre stories that argued that Jews were less intelligent than Gentile Germans. I fail to see what was remotely "scientific" about this even to the nieve observer. Similarly if the Confederates were so convinced of the Blacks lower intelligence, why did they need to exclude free Blacks them from Academic professions? It reminds me of hideous sexist bigotry of Arthur Scargill's National Union of Miners, who excluded women from mine working.
#14996807
Rich wrote:So scientific racism as opposed to say the religious racism of the Mormons or Orthodox Judaism? Why must we tear down the statues of Confederate Generals but statutes of racist bigoted conmen like Joseph Smith and Bingham Young are fine?

But before considering the question of scientific racism, I think its helpful to consider the question of scientific sexism. So a classical so called "scientific" sexist belief is that men are hindered by biology from having babies, rather than recognising that the only reason men don't have babies is because thousands of years prejudice, of all the dead generations of bigots weighing like a nightmare on the brains of the living. I must confess I do sometimes have thoughts of "scientific" sexism myself.

So scientific racism would be considering the possibility that say the Bambenga people might have a significantly measurably low intelligence than say Germans. That that intelligence difference might significantly hinder the development of their societies and that when integrated into western societies might seriously effect their ability to gain certain roles within society that require, or are highly correlated with, high intelligence (as measured), due to the huge magnifying effect of the Bell Curve on the extremes of the probability distributions.

Its important to note here that a male chauvinist pig might consider women to have an equal or even marginally higher average intelligence to men, but a significantly lower variance.

Anyway the Nazis strike me as almost the opposite of the typical "scientific" racist. Rather than attributing the incredible success levels of Germany's Jews to a higher level of inherited intelligence, the Nazis concocted some bizarre stories that argued that Jews were less intelligent than Gentile Germans. I fail to see what was remotely "scientific" about this even to the nieve observer. Similarly if the Confederates were so convinced of the Blacks lower intelligence, why did they need to exclude free Blacks them from Academic professions? It reminds me of hideous sexist bigotry of Arthur Scargill's National Union of Miners, who excluded women from mine working.

What point were you trying to make with that rambling diatribe, Rich? I'm genuinely interested.
#14996808
Potemkin wrote:What point were you trying to make with that rambling diatribe, Rich? I'm genuinely interested.

I think he’s trying to say that while there is evidence of inheritable racial differences, the use of those differences to make legal distinctions is often totally unscientific.

BTW, while Brigham Young was typical for his time, his predecessor was not—Joseph Smith believed that the cause of any difference in performance between Blacks and Whites was environmental.
#14996908
April 1, Monday

President Lincoln is still much involved with various Federal appointments, compiling lists, and writing memoranda. He signs an order to fit out USS Powhatan, upon the advice of Secretary of State Seward, to go to sea at the earliest possible moment under sealed orders which are apparently issued unknown to the Navy Department. It becomes a confused situation in which Powhatan is kept out of the Fort Sumter expedition. The vessel is now to be used to reinforce Fort Pickens in Florida.

This same day Seward sends President Lincoln “Some thoughts for the President’s consideration.” The “Thoughts” are really policies for the President to follow and virtually suggest that Seward be allowed to act as a prime minister in carrying out foreign policy and actions against the Confederacy. He advises changing the question from one of slavery to Union or disunion. He would terminate the Federal occupation of Fort Sumter, but maintain the other forts. At the same time Seward proposes demanding “explanations” for alleged hemispheric interference from Spain, France, Great Britain, and Russia, and suggests sending agents into Canada, Mexico, and Central America to create a “spirit of independence.” If satisfactory “explanations” are not received from Spain and France, he would ask Congress to declare war, hoping this would reunite the nation. The President drafts a response, but it will not be clear whether it was given to Seward. He probably does discuss the paper orally. President Lincoln cannot see the distinction between Fort Sumter and Fort Pickens. As to handling policy, the President tactfully affirms that he, not Seward, is President.
#14996959
Doug64 wrote:April 1, Monday
This same day Seward sends President Lincoln “Some thoughts for the President’s consideration.” The “Thoughts” are really policies for the President to follow and virtually suggest that Seward be allowed to act as a prime minister in carrying out foreign policy and actions against the Confederacy. He advises changing the question from one of slavery to Union or disunion. He would terminate the Federal occupation of Fort Sumter, but maintain the other forts. At the same time Seward proposes demanding “explanations” for alleged hemispheric interference from Spain, France, Great Britain, and Russia, and suggests sending agents into Canada, Mexico, and Central America to create a “spirit of independence.” If satisfactory “explanations” are not received from Spain and France, he would ask Congress to declare war, hoping this would reunite the nation.

A rather extreme expression of the Monroe Doctrine. Lol.

The President drafts a response, but it will not be clear whether it was given to Seward. He probably does discuss the paper orally. President Lincoln cannot see the distinction between Fort Sumter and Fort Pickens. As to handling policy, the President tactfully affirms that he, not Seward, is President.

Lol. This would not be the last of Seward's attempted power grabs. To his credit, at least he wasn't conspiring against Lincoln behind his back - he was writing to Lincoln directly and explaining why he, Lincoln, should retire and appoint him, Seward, as acting President. Lol.

Thank God Lincoln was there to keep Seward under some semblance of control.
#14996983
Potemkin wrote:A rather extreme expression of the Monroe Doctrine. Lol.

Any excuse for a war. :roll:


Lol. This would not be the last of Seward's attempted power grabs. To his credit, at least he wasn't conspiring against Lincoln behind his back - he was writing to Lincoln directly and explaining why he, Lincoln, should retire and appoint him, Seward, as acting President. Lol.

Thank God Lincoln was there to keep Seward under some semblance of control.

So very true. And just think, Seward was one of the other names put forward for the Republican nomination. If he had been elected instead, it would have been a total disaster.
#14997051
April 2, Tuesday

President Lincoln visits the Washington Navy Yard and military barracks.
#14997243
April 3, Wednesday

The Cabinet of President Lincoln meets to discuss the Fort Sumter crisis and the President sends Allan B. Magruder to Richmond to arrange possible talks between Lincoln and Virginia unionists.

At Morris Island in Charleston Harbor a Confederate battery fires on the American schooner Rhoda H. Shannon.

The South Carolina State Convention ratifies the Constitution of the Confederate States 114 to 16.
#14997426
April 4, Thursday

The Virginia State Convention meeting in Richmond rejects 89 to 45 a motion to pass an ordinance of secession and submit it to the people.

In Washington President Lincoln holds a secret meeting with John B. Baldwin, Virginia unionist, in which he reportedly considers exchanging Virginia’s loyalty for the surrender of Fort Sumter. The President also informs Gustavus Vasa Fox that the expedition to Fort Sumter will be sent, and drafts a letter, signed by Secretary of War Cameron, to Major Robert Anderson that “the expedition will go forward, ...” The President hopes that Anderson can hold out until April 11 or 12, when the expedition will attempt to provision the fort, and if there is resistance “will endeavor also to reinforce you.” It is desired that Anderson hold out, but the decision will be up to him.
#14997430
Potemkin wrote:What point were you trying to make with that rambling diatribe, Rich? I'm genuinely interested.

I was making a number of points, in response to your your sweeping but vague claim. But if you want one it is that Nazi racism toward Jews had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with "scientific racism". Of course the Nazis may have engaged in some dubious scientific experiments on race during the war. But Nazi policy on race, whether in relation to Jews, Slavs or Blacks was decided and promulgated long before these experiments took place. And to my knowledge none of the experiments were in any way designed to support the Nazi thesis that Jews were immoral parasites.

As to to the Confederates, in what racial science did they engage? What racial scientific experiments took place in the South either before the Confederacy or during it? If my knowledge on this is lacking, I'd be very happy to be educated on the subject. I'm genuinely interested.
#14997438
Rich wrote:I was making a number of points, in response to your your sweeping but vague claim. But if you want one it is that Nazi racism toward Jews had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with "scientific racism". Of course the Nazis may have engaged in some dubious scientific experiments on race during the war. But Nazi policy on race, whether in relation to Jews, Slavs or Blacks was decided and promulgated long before these experiments took place. And to my knowledge none of the experiments were in any way designed to support the Nazi thesis that Jews were immoral parasites.

As to to the Confederates, in what racial science did they engage? What racial scientific experiments took place in the South either before the Confederacy or during it? If my knowledge on this is lacking, I'd be very happy to be educated on the subject. I'm genuinely interested.

People believe all sorts of things based on the flimsiest of reasons. The adherents of racist ideologies claim that their prejudice is based on "scientific" grounds, in an attempt to appear cool-headed and objective rather than sordidly and viciously prejudiced against people for no reason. But if you asked them to explain the scientific basis for their racism, you likely wouldn't get a very coherent response. Likewise, the adherents of the idea that everyone is born equal base that belief on little more than wishful thinking and an unwarranted extension of the abstract legal equality under bourgeois society to the physical and mental attributes of real, living people. The Southern secessionists claimed that their racism was objective and rational. Did they feel the need to demonstrate that by conducting proper scientific enquiries into the matter? Of course not. Lol.
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