Tainari88 wrote:@blackjack21 I think I have calmed down enough to answer a few of your replies mentioning me in this thread. I have to be honest, you say things that are racist. You do. You sound condescending, patronizing, arrogant, and also the arguments you use are not like other people where the purpose is to be transparent. I don't think you do that. You subscribe to the get as dirty as you need to win school of political thought. I know that.
I think you infer so much from what I say, which I neither say nor intend. I don't bother much with the racism charges as much as I should for two reasons: first, if you need a bad guy and you are going to call me a racist, that's just the way it is going to be. It is your conclusion and it is fixed. It cannot be moved unless I subscribe to socialism. Second, I do embrace the scientific method and I do think humans very obviously have hereditary traits and they are meaningful. People who argue the science of nature right up until it hits the human race are trying to sustain a political viewpoint that isn't as well thought ought as it needs to be for effective governance. I reject Marx, but I also reject Jefferson in the context of radical egalitarianism. Equal application of the law is better thought of as uniformity in my opinion, not equality.
At 12 years old, you could have given me all the moral arguments for and against racism, and I would have accepted one or the other out of hand as of how 1970s thinking might have gone as a child learning to conform to societal norms. We have the human genome decoded now. We know a hell of a lot more now about genetic differences, and we're still pretty ignorant in the scheme of things. So at 52 years old, I've lived enough life experience, been bombarded with enough propaganda, seen how much our understanding has grown, and so forth that I can pretty much form an opinion of my own. In fact, the people I respect the most have an opinion of their own--they are not merely subscribers. (remember I rarely agreed with Rei Murasame, but appreciated the fact that she wasn't a stooge for the establishment or a garden variety leftist) It is why I often don't bother to argue your charges of racism, because you express an opinion you believe to be true regardless of what I have or haven't said. It's as if you have this effigy of some bad racist in your head, and you put the "relampaguito" name tag on him, and then assert that I think things or feel things that I do not think or feel. If my retort to you is, "There are more than two points of view," that is my way of saying drop the communism/capitalism dialectic so we can have a more meaningful conversation.
Often, I learn by playing Devil's Advocate--taking the unpopular side of political arguments just to see where it leads. I'm not interested in getting a pat on the head from people like Godstud or Drlee because I'm so desperate to feel validated for my intellect. I'm not looking for approval, and that much should be obvious. However, I have also learned that some of what is unpopular is defensible, and persists over time or it is statistically significant--even whether I like it or not. And sometimes, when it pisses off the left I relish in the argument and don't think it "dirty" at all.
What you call "get as dirty as you need to win" isn't quite the case. I'm probing into what you believe and why you believe it. That's why I will ask questions like whether you are for unrestricted abortion for parents who want to abort children they know are going to be homosexual. It's interesting to see how people answer such questions, but I'm aware that some on the political left find such questions emotionally disturbing. My father was a medical doctor, as you know. So I know first hand how a lot of aspects of being a medical doctor are no more palatable than cleaning toilets. Frankly, a lot of being a doctor or a dentist is kind of gross. So when you counter me with people cleaning toilets, I'm narrowing things down to whether it is the pay rate, the social esteem or a combination of the two, or possibly other factors that has you finding cleaning toilets so utterly offensive and degrading but being a medical doctor putting endoscopes up people's arses somehow dignified. Clearly, one pays much better than the other. Some people treat the janitorial staff with disrespect while holding the doctor in high esteem. In many respects, I think it comes down to social esteem with you, as I think you feel that you and people you love have been mistreated particularly by people who make more money than you and/or are of a different race (namely white). And by the way, I'm not trying to invalidate your life experience.
Tainari88 wrote:I know a lot but I say very little. What for? How much do racist thought people as intelligent as you are? How much are they willing to concede to logic or reason? Not much.
Most people don't share my point of view because they disagree with me on the rougher or finer points of what I have to say. They simply don't have a point of view of their own. They subscribe to one and defend it even if it doesn't make sense to them, and they know I don't subscribe to theirs. I live in California where the Social Justice Warriors are very tribal, but much more emotional than they are rational. They need to belong to a group, follow its rules, get others to do so as well, and verbally and even sometimes physically attack those who will not conform to their group norms. That's why last year, we could no longer get grocery bags for free in California grocery stores and were heavily encouraged to bring re-usable bags as that would somehow go a long way to save the planet. With coronavirus, those very same reusable bags are now banned by fiat and the stores can give you new bags again, but the SJW types don't miss a beat. They go right to enforcing no re-usable shopping bags and never reflect on whether their policy position was a good idea in the first place. Historically, plastic shopping bags became popular when people started lobbying that paper grocery bags were leading to deforestation--it wouldn't surprise me at all if plastic bag vendors seeded the crazy movement against paper bags either. You've lived through all of this stuff too. Yet, you don't seem too interested in critiquing these types of political views.
As for racism, generally when I am making a racial argument I'm dealing either with scientifically understood differences among population groups, official statistics such a crime or disease statistics, or synthesizing an opinion of my own based on these. Sometimes I'm being serious, sometimes I'm just being absurd for humor's sake, and sometimes I'm just straight up trolling.
I find debating race and crime stats very interesting, because the political left goes to impossible lengths to argue things like "race is just a social construct." Maybe in some senses, but the refractive index of someone's skin isn't a social construct and, tanning aside, it is largely a heritable trait. Yet, we've discussed heritable traits that have nothing to do with skin color, hair color or texture, eye color, etc. The one I've put before you is the MAOA 2-repeat allele that occurs in a fairly small percentage of African Americans--about 5.5% or thereabouts. That's basically two standard deviations from the mean. They are outliers. Yet, studies show that 80% of black males between the ages of say 15-35 with a 2-repeat allele or MAOA have been arrested and many of them incarcerated. You could say that's all due to racism, but it may be that a lot of very kind and decent black people suffer from racism because of this very small population of people with 2-repeat allele of MAOA who commit over half of the violent crimes. What if there were an inexpensive attenuator of the negative effects of that, such as low doses of Valproic acid for black males age 15-35 with a 2-repeat allele of MAOA? Or marketing low-amine diets to such people? What if that led to a drop in violent crime? You could go more radical too, to something like a CRISPR-cas9 genetic modification. That's a pretty direct and discrete argument. I find that you want to debate me on issues of race, but when we get into it you pretty much abandon the conversation because I'm not defending slavery or sharecropping.
I've posted articles like this before:
Propranolol reduces implicit negative racial bias. It's interesting, but it implies that racism has biological mechanisms too, which is pretty much a forbidden point of view on the political left. What if people who test for implicit racial bias were provided with low-dose propranolol? It's surprisingly difficult to have an intelligent conversation with leftists about these types of things, because they are so dedicated to the proposition that racism is deliberately taught and enforced.
I've posted this to you before too:
Because of her age and her life experience, I think Minnejean Brown should be treated with respect and her views considered. However, I disagree with her conclusion, just as I disagree with Marx or Jefferson. These kids have been taught anti-racism their whole lives. They are bombarded with it in media, even in cartoons when they are quite small. Yet, here you see a racial division with no animus whatsoever; no government enforcing it; no KKK; basically, they all say they hang around with whoever they feel comfortable with. I'm saying the persistence of this sort of thing has biological underpinnings that the establishment and the political left ignore. However, BECAUSE it is natural, IT WILL NOT GO AWAY as a natural tendency no matter what policies are implemented. That is my position. It isn't one based upon some sort of deep-seated hatred for people that look different. It isn't a view I hold, because that's how I WANT IT TO BE. I don't.
I'll present you another synthesized argument I made years and years ago--although, I cannot find all the articles to support it anymore. Many years ago, I noted that if you overlaid graphs in the violent crime statistics between Native Americans and African Americans, they were VERY similar--except when it came to murder. When it came to murder, the violent crime rate of African-Americans remained high, but for Native Americans it plummeted. Again, I posited a number of likely factors--such as higher testosterone levels among African-American males along with 2-repeat allele (or sometimes 3-repeat allele) of MAOA, whereas Native Americans seemed to oscillate from a fight response to a flight response as the intensity of conflict increased. Now, when you look at the statistics, it's pretty glaring. You can't say there's no difference. It's like night and day. Yet, we cannot scientifically probe into why this difference occurs, because the political left is dedicated to the proposition that racism is strictly political and social and can be eradicated by law, education and endless propaganda. I do not share their view.
Tainari88 wrote:You just want to destroy the establishment. That nation of yours is gonna burn and there will be tremendous instability. Those are the consequences of the neoliberal trickle-down bullshit economics and the sellout lying liberals in the Democratic machine. That is the reality of Trump and divide and conquer.
Supply-side economics and neoliberal global trade economics are not the same thing at all. They are factional fights within capitalism.
Tainari88 wrote:It is important to manage it though, and not let it sweep you into insulting people on the internet and getting red cards, and yellow cards, and banning and stuff. Or to get you into legal troubles and job losses.
I don't sit around calling people racists, chuds, or whatever all the time. I will do it sometimes and deliberately, but it's not my general MO. Typically, it's the opposite of the George Floyd shooting, where the police are justified in shooting someone and I show that video because it gets people like Special Olympian in an absolute dither for some reason.
Tainari88 wrote:His father is in jail for life in Arizona and he is from the Mississippi Delta. He killed some people. He never even sent his son a picture of him so my son sort of knows how he might look like. He was an abusive man and his life is thrown away with violence and bad life choices.
There are a lot of cases like that. A lot has been done socially and legally to reduce those types of life outcomes over the last several decades. Nobody wants that sort of thing. Nobody. Yet, a lot has been done to make things worse; namely, break down of families, jobs outsourcing that often hits minority communities the hardest, and flooding communities with recreational drugs.
Tainari88 wrote:I wanted a better society for my boy. My black son. The one I had first and loved first.
And you've created that outcome. Part of that is a society that doesn't champion institutional racism, part of that is education, and part of that is being from an intact home. Yet, he will still face some aspects of racism--some of it people's natural tendency to distrust others who aren't like them, and some of it because there are a lot of assholes out there.
Tainari88 wrote:And this racist meltdown scares me BJ. It scares me for him. He likes to jog and is athletic, and he lives in Michigan n a small city with high unemployment for ex white factory workers and car assembly lines, etc.
Yes, I can understand that fear. His father and those white ex factory workers are a source of a frustration-aggression response. They can get violent. That is something to be scared of. Why do you think a lot of white people are racists? Hatred? No, not even the majority of them. They are scared. I have a friend who is Irish and Hispanic. His family culture embraces pretty much everything. I remember in my 20s being at a party at his dad's house with kids, young adults my age, people his parents age (my age now) and elderly people. They were playing some gangster rap music on the stereo and everyone was sitting around talking like that was perfectly normal. Listen to that music and its message. I could not imagine in a million years having my mother's parents (working class British and Irish) at a party like that. The foul language alone would put them off. They would think I had been incredibly disrespectful to them if I had put some music like that on. Think of that cultural difference. My working class grandparents would be mortified. My upper middle class grandparents? They would think they had gone to the wrong house and left. Yet that was perfectly normal for my friend and his family (He identifies as Mexican. His dad is short and light haired, his mother is almost six foot and blond and blue eyed Irish. So he's a six foot tall brown-eyed blond haired guy that copped a barrio accent, identifies as Mexican and went to a college prep high school with me).
Tainari88 wrote:I think about that....and you talking about sending Black people to pick berries....and get rid of the illegal aliens?
The point of my comments are:
1) Stop allowing the establishment to drive down the wages of working class people.
2) Stop allowing the establishment to buy votes; and,
3) Idle time is the Devil's workshop--it's much better for people to be productive than idle. It's just part of our nature.
I mean the same for all people. Being a white guy with a music degree and no employment doesn't mean you can't go out and pick strawberries, because you went to college. You'll notice that isn't written in our laws anywhere, yet it is how these people govern. They use welfare to buy votes.
Tainari88 wrote:Waiting for someone to care enough about his life....racists don't care about his life.
A lot of non-racists don't care about his life either. Apathy is probably more pernicious than antipathy.
Tainari88 wrote:So many racist incidents. Struggles and problems. It is not an abstract thing to be intellectually understood only in my life or my husband's life BJ. It is gut-level stuff. It is REPULSIVE. Racism is about stripping someone of their humanness and making them something to be disdained and disrespected.
Indeed. That's why globalists who know perfectly well that highly diverse societies often suffer with constant internecine strife and they will lie straight to your face and say, "Our diversity is our strength." That IS DIVIDE AND CONQUER. Diversity among the lower class is the strength of the upper class. Pitting the lower classes against each other is the goal of the upper class.
Tainari88 wrote:...and wield it with callous disregard on their fellow human beings for the simple need to control and dominate and be the ones in power ONLY. It sickens me. Deeply.
I understand this latter part of that sentiment well. It's why--as unbelievable as it is to the so-called elite--that people prefer Donald Trump to them. It's not because he's Mr. Wonderful. It's because they feel that they SHOULD be in power irrespective of what any voter thinks. They think it's fine to manufacture fake Russia collusion hoaxes and literally get people charged and put in jail on process crimes just to create the illusion of a controversy that doesn't exist in real life. Those people are frankly just bad people. As I've always said, Donald Trump is just a placeholder for me. Yet, it's very important to keep the people behind the likes of Joe Biden off the levers of power.
Tainari88 wrote:Your style is about getting dirty to win.
Not really. In a debate with you, it's about getting you to accept some aspects of positive analysis so that you can understand the limits of normative analysis. I'm sympathetic to those factory workers who have lost their jobs, their livelihood and their sense of dignity and community. Have I ever worked in a factory? No. Am I a working class guy? No. Yet, I sympathize with the plight of people who have been lied to by the establishment--that includes black people too, whether you believe it or not.
I think your political outlook is very sweet, but I also think it is hopelessly unrealistic. Take a Jeff Bezos for example. He's the richest man in the world, owns the Washington Post, has Amazon buy out Whole Foods, and then cuts the Whole Foods employee's healthcare benefits to "make things more efficient." That's your typical wealthy liberal Democrat--a lying snake. A cutthroat that will then twist on a dime and start virtue signaling about something else. It's got to drive that guy crazy that Donald Trump is president. Although, Trump hasn't been particularly ruthless against such people as Bezos.
Tainari88 wrote:and in the old days having your family's phones tapped
Everyone's phones are tapped now.
Tainari88 wrote:But you have no idea the shit they are capable of allowing to retain power and keep money in the bank. They are the worst there is. i know them.
Yes I know quite a bit more than you think I do, but I haven't been the subject of their wrath. However, their anger at Trump is pretty wonderful stuff in that it shows the American people who THEY really are. I even find it amusing that John Roberts and SCOTUS dismissed Trump's end to DACA because he didn't lay out his reasons--calling it "arbitrary and capricious" when it was clearly unconstitutional, and the state governments and their lockdowns are the virtual embodiment of arbitrary and capricious. That governor of Michigan is a classic example. The establishment deserves to lose, and I really hope they do. It's not because I think Trump is the ideal president in any way. It's because the establishment has chosen not to modify their stance even in the slightest--even lying to win, which is their old MO. Now they say they want to take your guns away, defund the police, allow riots, raise your taxes give money to illegal immigrants, and put people in jail for going to church while calling others "peaceful protesters" for burning down churches.
All the best to you too.
"We have put together the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics."
-- Joe Biden