[Drlee]

POD, you question is illogical. Capitalism evolved naturally. It was not imposed by the state. I assume you would want socialism to evolve naturally. I actually think that in a few hundred years the world will be socialist.

Wrong. It came by force.

The first system was....A dude left his cave social group and threw a rock at a mammoth. Drug a bunch of said mammoth back to the cave where he....wait for it....did not sell it. He gave it to people who, in turn, gave him a club, a pelt to wear, some children and a pretty stone. When he got sick, or did not hit the mammoth with a rock, some other people took care of him or gave him some spare mammoth. That is socialism. Not capitalism. Or...absent a government protecting oligarchs, is there a difference?

[wat0n]

Leviathan

And hence it fulfills a key role in allowing for markets to function. It's not wrong to say the State imposes capitalism on the population... And it imposes socialism too, by the way, since it is the State which makes sure people get their "fair" share of the pie and who "represents" the proletariat in controlling the means of production. Whatever "fair" and "represents" may mean (in reality, it's neither fair nor the State represents anyone but the newly minted socialist elites in actual socialist regimes).

[Julian658]

Wrong. It came by force.

The first system was....A dude left his cave social group and threw a rock at a mammoth. Drug a bunch of said mammoth back to the cave where he....wait for it....did not sell it. He gave it to people who, in turn, gave him a club, a pelt to wear, some children and a pretty stone. When he got sick, or did not hit the mammoth with a rock, some other people took care of him or gave him some spare mammoth. That is socialism. Not capitalism. Or...absent a government protecting oligarchs, is there a difference?

Human evolution and behavior is spontaneous. There is no guiding hand. Some groups conquered others. Some groups got ahead of others. Altruism and sharing was done when there was an evolutionary advantage. It is what it is.

Humans spontaneously practiced commerce in Sumer and elsewhere. That is how MAN left behind the hunter gather era.

[Julian658]

And hence it fulfills a key role in allowing for markets to function. It's not wrong to say the State imposes capitalism on the population... And it imposes socialism too, by the way, since it is the State which makes sure people get their "fair" share of the pie and who "represents" the proletariat in controlling the means of production. Whatever "fair" and "represents" may mean (in reality, it's neither fair nor the State represents anyone but the newly minted socialist elites in actual socialist regimes).

Yes, the state can be brutally oppressive. If I don't pay taxes I go to jail. The citizens also get perverted. Many think that the taxes I pay was never my money. Many think that if I earn a dollar a poor person lost a dollar.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Julian658

So you agree that the state imposes capitalism just like the state would impose socialism in a socialist state.

Since you think this is perfectly fine when capitalism does it, you should logically think it is fine when socialists do it.

[Julian658]

@Julian658

So you agree that the state imposes capitalism just like the state would impose socialism in a socialist state.

Since you think this is perfectly fine when capitalism does it, you should logically think it is fine when socialists do it.

POD:

There is a difference! In a capitalist nation you have freedom and hence can create a commune and practice socialism all day long. No one is stopping you from giving up all your private property. You can have strangers live in your house and they can use your computer and Wi-FI at will. You have 100% freedom to practice communism in a capitalist country. No one is stopping you from establishing a cooperative where everyone you know is the owner. OTOH, capitalists would not be allowed to practice capitalism in a communist nation. Private property ownership would be abolished.

You can be a communist is capitalist nation
You cannot be a capitalist in a communist nation.

It is all about freedom POD.

[Unthinking Majority]

I don't think you need laws in capitalism, law just makes it more orderly and stable. To enforce contracts and property rights you can have police do it or private people/groups/organizations. The latter is obviously not at all ideal.

For instance, there's no world government to enforce trade terms between different countries and companies within different countries, and yet international trade still happens.

[Unthinking Majority]

@Julian658

So you agree that the state imposes capitalism just like the state would impose socialism in a socialist state.

Since you think this is perfectly fine when capitalism does it, you should logically think it is fine when socialists do it.

If I have a workshop where I make wooden tables, and we agree that I will make you a table in exchange for $200 or a few pieces of gold or whatever, and I defend my workshop with a gun and a cranky dog, the government isn't needed in any of this and yet we just engaged in capitalism.

[Godstud]

You lost 100 thousand dollars? ROFL. No wonder you're a socialist. You can't make any money so you want me to give you mine. I get it.

You obviously know nothing about the markets. If you trade in the top 30, you'll have made money, otherwise you'll have lost. Trump hasn't actually helped the trading markets since 2017.

If all you do is watch Fox News, you won't know this, of course.

Pretending I am a "Lefty" is why no one believes your blatant lie about you once being "socialist". You're too fucking ignorant of it, and simply not intelligent enough to grasp the concept of Capitalism with Socialist checks and balances.

@Julian658 Thanks for letting me know that you don't actually use the stock markets(there is more than one). I don't trade exclusively on the US stock market, but you're a racist know-it-all, so I should expect profoundly stupid statements from you. trot on.

[Pants-of-dog]

POD:

There is a difference! In a capitalist nation you have freedom and hence can create a commune and practice socialism all day long. No one is stopping you from giving up all your private property. You can have strangers live in your house and they can use your computer and Wi-FI at will. You have 100% freedom to practice communism in a capitalist country. No one is stopping you from establishing a cooperative where everyone you know is the owner. OTOH, capitalists would not be allowed to practice capitalism in a communist nation. Private property ownership would be abolished.

You can be a communist is capitalist nation
You cannot be a capitalist in a communist nation.

It is all about freedom POD.

No. this is not true, just like the last time you made this claim at me. If i walk into a factory and give the means of production to the workers, the cops will come and arrest me.

If, for example,, indigenous people tried to use their land according to traditional indigenous economics, they would be shot for trespassing.

—————————

@Unthinking Majority

No.

Your hypothetical example is not capitalism, unless you are redefining capitalism to mean simple barter, which is such a vague meaning as to make this conversation difficult.

Unless you have a system where contracts are the basis of economic transactions between private individuals who are trying to profit, your hypothetical example makes little sense. This is why capitalism has never happened without state support throughout history.

[Agent Steel]

You obviously know nothing about the markets. If you trade in the top 30, you'll have made money, otherwise you'll have lost. Trump hasn't actually helped the trading markets since 2017.

If all you do is watch Fox News, you won't know this, of course.

Pretending I am a "Lefty" is why no one believes your blatant lie about you once being "socialist". You're too fucking ignorant of it, and simply not intelligent enough to grasp the concept of Capitalism with Socialist checks and balances.

@Julian658 Thanks for letting me know that you don't actually use the stock markets(there is more than one). I don't trade exclusively on the US stock market, but you're a racist know-it-all, so I should expect profoundly stupid statements from you. trot on.

Now you're calling Julian a racist? You just said a couple pages back that you weren't going to do that. So you lied.

Julian is a very kind-hearted, sensitive, and generous man.

[Drlee]

Julian is a very kind-hearted, sensitive, and generous man.

Of course he is. Salt of the earth. Unless your brown, beige or light in the slippers.

[Julian658]

Of course he is. Salt of the earth. Unless your brown, beige or light in the slippers.

Calling racism 24/7 is the new religion.

[Julian658]

No. this is not true, just like the last time you made this claim at me. If i walk into a factory and give the means of production to the workers, the cops will come and arrest me.

POD: You cannot give away what is not yours. However, you are free to create your own means of production. No one is stopping you. In fact. every day young people get to start a new business in the USA. You could do the same, work your ass off, and then give it way. Who is stopping you?

The problem that you people want to steal the wealth from those that know how to create wealth.

[Julian658]

:roll: You obviously know nothing about the markets. If you trade in the top 30, you'll have made money, otherwise you'll have lost. Trump hasn't actually helped the trading markets since 2017.

If all you do is watch Fox News, you won't know this, of course.

Pretending I am a "Lefty" is why no one believes your blatant lie about you once being "socialist". You're too fucking ignorant of it, and simply not intelligent enough to grasp the concept of Capitalism with Socialist checks and balances.

@Julian658 Thanks for letting me know that you don't actually use the stock markets(there is more than one). I don't trade exclusively on the US stock market, but you're a racist know-it-all, so I should expect profoundly stupid statements from you. trot on.

It would be nearly impossible for anyone with an IQ over 70 to lose 100,000 in the current market. I think you are a POC who is very poor and bitter.

[Drlee]

It would be nearly impossible for anyone with an IQ over 70 to lose 100,000 in the current market.

Tell that to Trump. He is just about to get hit with a 400 million dollar payment due and, while claiming he is a billionaire has to borrow money to pay cut rate lawyers. But he is not the stupid one I guess. His racist republican friends are shoveling money at him because....well because.....I mean.....he must need it, right? Or... wow.

[Pants-of-dog]

POD: You cannot give away what is not yours. However, you are free to create your own means of production. No one is stopping you. In fact. every day young people get to start a new business in the USA. You could do the same, work your ass off, and then give it way. Who is stopping you?

The problem that you people want to steal the wealth from those that know how to create wealth.

And none of this contradicts my point about how the state would impose capitalism if I tried to create socialism.

In fact, the way you call me a thief supports my point, since this is exactly what communists would be charged with if they tried to create socialism.

And like I tell you every time you bring up this argument, the actions of a individual do not matter, since we are discussing the economics of the entire society.

Maybe you do not remember how you have brought this up several times in the past. You usually mention Mondragon?

[Unthinking Majority]

No. this is not true, just like the last time you made this claim at me. If i walk into a factory and give the means of production to the workers, the cops will come and arrest me.

That's not true. Workers are given stocks as compensation all the time. There's nothing illegal about giving workers an equal share of the entire company. There's also nothing illegal about forming a worker cooperative, lots of them exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_union

If, for example,, indigenous people tried to use their land according to traditional indigenous economics, they would be shot for trespassing.

You can't trespass on your own land.

[Julian658]

And none of this contradicts my point about how the state would impose capitalism if I tried to create socialism.

In fact, the way you call me a thief supports my point, since this is exactly what communists would be charged with if they tried to create socialism.

And like I tell you every time you bring up this argument, the actions of a individual do not matter, since we are discussing the economics of the entire society.

Maybe you do not remember how you have brought this up several times in the past. You usually mention Mondragon?

Yes, POD, you have not changed one bit. But, I always have hope. Do you know who is the most ruthless capitalist in the world? An ex-communist!!!

This time around you have freely accepted that you would take away all the property of others. Thank you for being honest. Margaret Thatcher is looking down at you from heaven.

Do you ever try to understand that communism fails because MAN is flawed and cannot switch to that system overnight? Marx was correct, but he failed to understand the nature of MAN.

Since you are PC: MAN means mankind which also includes women.

[Julian658]

Tell that to Trump. He is just about to get hit with a 400 million dollar payment due and, while claiming he is a billionaire has to borrow money to pay cut rate lawyers. But he is not the stupid one I guess. His racist republican friends are shoveling money at him because....well because.....I mean.....he must need it, right? Or... wow.

I am actually glad Trump is out. I hope Biden stays in the center and simply gives lip service to the lefty lunatics and those that practice the anti-racism religion. Yes your anti-racism is religion!