Yugoslavian War - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Politics_Observer
#15151894
@noemon

noemon wrote:As soon as Turkey stops claiming Greek territory, we can and will be best friends.


That will never happen. It's the Balkans.
#15151898
Politics_Observer wrote:@noemon
That will never happen. It's the Balkans.


That sounds a lot like racism mate.

The Balkans is an area of the world that has enjoyed the longest peace out of many other areas in the world.

The Balkans have only changed 3 hands(Greek, Roman, Turkish) in 3 millennia. And Greek, Roman is not even 2 separate hands but combined into a single entity anyway.

If Turkey stops claiming Greek territory and agitating for war there is nothing that stops us from being friends.

Did you know that when Erdogan was imprisoned by the Turkish government, it was the Greeks who secured his release?

Greeks and Turks have made leaps of friendship the past 2 decades with a lot of investment both ways, things have only gone sour since Erdogan decided to warmonger against Greece the past year or so.

My sister got engaged to a Turk in Istanbul but their relationship broke down later.

Albania & North Macedonia 2 extremely hostile countries against Greece with huge ties to Turkey have now been integrated under the Greek security umbrella who has been contracted by both of them to monitor and guard their airspace.
#15151902
@noemon

I meant no disrespect noemon, however, the Balkans I know, didn't look like a very peaceful place when I was there. Most of Bosnia was blown to smitheereens and riddled with mass graves everywhere when I was there with SFOR. The people were good folks caught in a shitty situation, but it seems like there is always some kind of territorial dispute of some kind and the slavs going against the Turks. My mother tells me the Turks and the Greeks are always going at each other. Which that seems to be the case here on the forum. And from what I am reading, there is a very violent history there in the Balkans where various Balkan countries fought the Turks and then each other over territory. The wars in the Balkans have been pretty nationalistic and brutal both in the past and here recently in the 1990s.
#15151904
Politics_Observer wrote:@noemon

I meant no disrespect noemon, however, the Balkans I know, didn't look like a very peaceful place when I was there. Most of Bosnia was blown to smitheereens and riddled with mass graves everywhere when I was there with SFOR. The people were good folks caught in a shitty situation, but it seems like there is always some kind of territorial dispute of some kind and the slavs going against the Turks. My mother tells me the Turks and the Greeks are always going at each other. Which that seems to be the case here on the forum.


It doesn't mean that what you said is not racist, dismissing the people of the Balkans as incapable to peace because of your own prejudice and anecdotes. In fact, that is precisely what racism is. Just because you were stationed there during the Yugoslav wars, it doesn't mean that this is historical or natural as you 're trying to make it out. Not to mention that the US was largely responsible for the wars itself as it all started when the USSR collapsed and the US grabbed the opportunity to destroy Yugoslavian socialism.

This American war in the Balkans in the 90's and the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 was entirely created by the US, who installed a CIA dictator in Greece, the CIA dictator removed the Greek army from Cyprus(20k strong), instigated a "coup" in Cyprus after he had removed the army and then ordered the Greek army to stand down while Turkey invaded unopposed.

Your racism becomes even pronounced when you take into account that the US and its stormtroopers like your self were the cause of the wars in the first place.

#15151912
noemon wrote:This documentary shows exactly how the British and Americans shamelessly manufactured fake news and images with concrete proof and evidence.

That does not deny that atrocities took place during the war by all sides.


I mean the Omarska death camp.

just this one







THE OMARSKA "DEATH CAMP"
From about 25 May 1992 to about 30 August 1992, Serb forces which had seized power in the Prijedor district collected and confined more than 3000 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats from the area in the administrative centre of an iron ore mine, a few kilometres from the predominantly Serb village of Omarska.


The Omarska camp housed many of the local Muslim and Croat elite, including political, administrative and religious leaders, academics and intellectuals, business leaders and others, who led and influenced the non-Serb population.


The prisoners were held under armed guard, in brutal conditions. They were murdered, raped, sexually assaulted, severely beaten and otherwise mistreated. For example, one of the four buildings of the compound was known as the "red house": most of the prisoners who were taken to it did not emerge alive.


THE VICTIMS
The victims were Muslims and Croats.


THE ACCUSED
The accused are all Serbs, a term referring either to Bosnian citizens of Serbian descent or to individuals for whom it is unknown whether they are Bosnian Serbs or citizens of Serbia proper.

https://www.icty.org/en/press/internati ... inside-and
Last edited by Sandzak on 21 Jan 2021 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
#15151913
@noemon

Our troops got involved in the Yugoslav wars because there was a genocide taking place there. Nobody was stopping it and somebody had to do it. Unless, you think genocide is acceptable in Europe. I don't find genocide acceptable at all. That's the reason why Milosevic was charged with crimes against humanity and the reason why Radavan Kardzic and Ratko Mladic eventually were arrested and sent to the Hague. What was it that we said shortly after the end of World War II when the extermination of the Jews was uncovered? Yes! "Never again!" Now, we either believe these words or we just regard them as empty political rhertoric and just let crimes like genocide just go unchecked. I think it's a bad idea to let genocide to go unchecked. The world waited too long to stop what was going on in Bosnia and an intervention was a necessity. That ultimately fell on our shoulders.
#15151916
Sandzak wrote:I mean the Omarska death camp.
just this one


Honestly mate, if this was a death camp how did all these western journalists were allowed to visit and film openly during the war?

Even filming the Serbian guards. These were camps for prisoners of war and they were opened to all western media who requested access. Greek media, German, British, American they all did reportages from them, from inside of them.

Britain however took it to another level literally manufacturing fake news in the document shown in my previous post.

Politics_Observer wrote:@noemon

Our troops got involved in the Yugoslav wars because there was a genocide taking place there. Nobody was stopping it and somebody had to do it. Unless, you think genocide is acceptable in Europe. I don't find genocide acceptable at all. That's the reason why Milosevic was charged with crimes against humanity and the reason why Radavan Kardzic and Ratko Mladic eventually were arrested and sent to the Hague. What was it that we said shortly after the end of World War II when the extermination of the Jews was uncovered? Yes! "Never again!" Now, we either believe these words or we just regard them as empty political rhertoric and just let crimes like genocide just go unchecked. I think it's a bad idea to let genocide to go unchecked. The world waited too long to stop what was going on in Bosnia and an intervention was a necessity. That ultimately fell on our shoulders.


The war that was started by the US the year the USSR collapsed got out of control on all sides you mean, as all sides had crazy weapons, and then the US had to step in to clean the mess it had created.

You forgot to mention Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač, your Croatian allies who were convicted for crimes against humanity.

But most importantly you are forgetting the fact that Serbia offered peace several times and Bosnia signed the peace only to be instructed by the US to spit on it and renege on it resuming hostilities. That was before shit hit the fan and hostilities reached a zenith(or nadir):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_pla ... osnian_War

On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats. On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia.
#15151919
@Politics_Observer, the bombing of Serbia was the beginning of the slippery slope that led us to Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

The US narrative about defending democracy and human rights was false long before Trump came to power. He just brought the falsehood out into the open.

Serbs have a long history of irredentist terror, but today's Kosovo is nothing more than a dysfunctional Mafia state. Not something Nato can be proud of.
#15151920
@noemon

The U.S. had nothing to do with the violent breakup of the former Yugoslavia. Politicians over in the Balkans are the ones who were responsible for the break up of the Former Yugoslavia. It was all about power for them. They had to wage war to keep their power by playing off nationalistic feelings. And the common people paid the price and everybody but the politicians were the losers. We don't have troops over there right now or if we do it is a very extraordinarily small contingent. We have no desire to keep our soldiers over there any longer than we have to.

Bosnian soldiers run the show where I was stationed at in Bosnia now. We don't have soldiers anymore where I was stationed at in Bosnia. The politicians in the former Yugoslavia, in particular, Slobodan Milosevic, were masters at manipulation and keeping their power. Just like Trump is manipulator, but I think Milosevic was smarter than Trump.
#15151921
Politics_Observer wrote:The U.S. had nothing to do with the violent breakup of the former Yugoslavia.



Right....

Most importantly people forget the fact that Serbia offered peace several times and Bosnia signed the peace only to be instructed by the US to spit on it and renege on it resuming hostilities. That was before shit hit the fan and hostilities reached a zenith(or nadir):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_pla ... osnian_War

On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats. On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia.


The Owen–Stoltenberg plan was again rejected by the Bosniaks resuming hostilities.

Basically the Bosniaks thought that because they had US support they could impose by force their own solution on the Serbs(who were the vast majority in Bosnia) not counting on the death that their intransigence was causing.
#15151922
@Atlantis

Well, it would have been nice if Europe has the military capability and political will to step in and stop the madness in the Balkans. Bear in mind, it's where World War I started too. Unfortunately, for 3 years, nobody in Europe did anything, so somebody had to do something and stop the gencocide over there.

@noemon

I provided security to forensic experts on the ground as they un-earthed the mass graves. The Bosnian Serbs had chopped up the bodies into small pieces to make them hard to identify. The logic being, that if you can't identify the bodies forensically, you can't prove a case of genocide in court. This was the Serbs attempt at cover up of what they did. Make no mistake, there was a genocide in Bosnia. Rape was also a very common weapon used against Muslim women in Bosnia during the violent breakup of the Former Yugoslavia.
#15151924
The Owen–Stoltenberg plan in 1994 was also rejected by the Bosniaks resuming hostilities.

Basically, the Bosniaks thought that because they had US support they could impose by force their own solution on the Serbs(who were the vast majority in Bosnia) not counting on the death that their intransigence was causing on both sides.

Crimes against humanity were committed by all sides during the Yugoslav wars.

But why was a war happening anyway and why were the Bosniaks rejecting the Peace Plans that would have put a stop to the war and to the crimes committed in it?
#15151925
Atlantis wrote:@Politics_Observer, the bombing of Serbia was the beginning of the slippery slope that led us to Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

The US narrative about defending democracy and human rights was false long before Trump came to power. He just brought the falsehood out into the open.

Serbs have a long history of irredentist terror, but today's Kosovo is nothing more than a dysfunctional Mafia state. Not something Nato can be proud of.



Serbia and Monte Negro are also Narco States.

e Serbs(who were the vast majority in Bosnia)


What, They are 35% Muslims are about 50%
#15151927
Sandzak wrote:Serbia and Monte Negro are also Narco States.


I doubt that.

But please tell us mate, why were the Bosniaks rejecting the peace plans and opting for war instead?

What, They are 35% Muslims are about 50%


It was more like 40% Serbs 40% Muslims and 20% Croats but in territory wise the Serbs were more spread out while the Muslims concentrated in a much smaller area. Somehow the Muslims wanted the whole of Bosnia for themselves and refused to sign any peace agreement with the Serbs. Why?
#15151928
@noemon

The Bosnian conflict was a nationalistic war. Winner take all. Rape was used as weapon as part of committing genocide because then it would "dilute" the Muslim population. Mosques were targeted and so where historical artifacts like the Stari Moast bridge in Mostar for example. It was a "Mulsim bridge" so it was blown to pieces by the HVO. It was "just a bridge" according to the Croat commander who was responsible for destroying it (who was later charged with war crimes). The goal was to erase any evidence that Muslims existed. And perhaps you are right, I probably shouldn't have said "It's the Balkans." After all, Americans have been killing one another for centuries too. Just like in the Balkans.
#15151929
As a soldier fighting for the Muslims clearly your view is skewed from your experience. Soldiers on the other side have the exact same stories as yourself to tell.

It need not have been "winner take all".

The Serbs were keen to sign a peace and move on, it was the Bosniak Muslims being egged on by the US that were rejecting the peace plans.
#15151930
@noemon

The Serbs wanted to partition out Bosnia and Izetbegovic wanted to keep the multi-ethnic nature of Bosnia where the Serbs, Croats and Muslims lived together under one country. That's not what the Bosnian Serbs wanted though. This was the reason why you had Serbs taking up arms against the Bosnian Serb army to defend the Bosnian Federation against the territorial and genocidal carve up of Bosnia. The goal of the Bosnian Serbs was to simply create a nationalistic "Greater Serbia" where only Serbs were allowed to live and nobody else. So, basically Muslims were kicked out of towns and villages where they lived for a very long time by the Bosnian Serbs. Izetbegovic was naive in assuming that the international community would come to his rescue if the Serbs tried to carve up Bosnia.

He should have been preparing for war and arming his Territorial Defense Units to the hilt in preparation to fight the Serbs. Eventually things spun out of control to where the U.S. eventually became involved. Personally, I would have been OK with the U.S. supplying weapons and arms to the Bosnian Federation once it became clear that the Bosnian Serbs were intent on carving up Bosnia and committing genocide. This is so they could fight their own battles and defend themselves. Still, I don't think genocide should be tolerated, but in cases where a major power cannot stop it, supply and arm the side that is having genocide committed against them so they can defend themselves.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 21 Jan 2021 21:58, edited 1 time in total.
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