[litwin]

One for sure there are two different things:
The world historiography and the Jewish historiography which is based on myths and religious books.

[arabian_dream]

"This interpretation of Jewish history was developed as talented, imaginative historians built on surviving fragments of Jewish and Christian religious memory to construct a continuous genealogy for the Jewish people"...yeah

[ninurta]

"This interpretation of Jewish history was developed as talented, imaginative historians built on surviving fragments of Jewish and Christian religious memory to construct a continuous genealogy for the Jewish people"...yeah

Depends on what part of the history. Where a mass exodus of arabs (people from Arabia) fled Arabia to live in Palestine and Lebanon and other places? Yeah that part of their history is made up. They are arabs through converting and intermixing with arabs.

As for the common ancestry of all jews. All except the proselytes and those born of proselytes/converts.

Other than that their history is not made up. In fact there are documents that say that Israel did exist and countries like Ancient Assyria did carry them away from their homeland as slaves. But like all slaves in the middle east their was ways for them or their children to get independance/freedom.

[Oddity]

Genetic testing shows Ashkenazi Jews mostly have Semitic paternal DNA, and European mtdna. The Khazar theory is way off-base, as very little in the way of Turkic genes has been found in the Jewish genepool. It's far more common, in fact, among Russians - one of the most anti-semitic societies on the planet.

As for this one idiot's 'historical" claims, he's just spouting off bullshit without any proof behind it, and loads of proof countering him. See: http://www.ftdna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

[QatzelOk]

one idiot's 'historical" claims

He's an actual "historian" rather than a Zionist who understands a bit of genetics.

[Maxim Litvinov]

The problem is when ancient storytelling is linked to current existential questions.

If some Jews and Christians want to believe that some group called the Israelites fled bondage in Egypt to arrive in the 'promised land' where they've remained ever since, then on the surface it's no particular problem, even if the belief is entirely ahistorical (which it is).

That this belief in turn promotes undue belief in the need for 'Jews' to preserve their 'homeland' which is 'God-given'... well, then we see some adverse effects.

[Oddity]

He's an actual "historian" rather than a Zionist who understands a bit of genetics.

He still presents no evidence for his claims, not to mention contradicts the vast majority of historians and geneticists. He's relying on Arthur Koestler's long-refuted Thirteenth Tribe thesis.

[Oxymoron]

some Jews and Christians want to believe that some group called the Israelites fled bondage in Egypt to arrive in the 'promised land' where they've remained ever since, then on the surface it's no particular problem, even if the belief is entirely ahistorical (which it is).

It is not, look at Hyskos thread Doc.

That this belief in turn promotes undue belief in the need for 'Jews' to preserve their 'homeland' which is 'God-given'... well, then we see some adverse effects.

It is not really God given, but it was the Jewish Homeland unless you want to ignore Assyrian,Babylonian,Persian,Egyptian,Greek, and Roman accounts of the Jewish Nation.

[QatzelOk]

Maxim argues that the fictional account of fleeing slaves striking it out with God by their side is ahistorical, while Oxy argues that it IS historical. I have to agree with Oxymoron: it is the historical version of reality that contains magical Jews fleeing the icky other.

Thing is, while this version may be historical, it isn't in any way true. It's fake, and this puts the rest of history into context.
Common sense and actual experience have taught me that no tribe has a wonderful "solution" to mankind's "problems." So a great bulk of "heroic" history is fake. Lies that create good warriors.

Instead of magical tribes winning everything via violence, what you actually find - in reality - are a few noticeable tribes that problematize their own existence, and end up creating "solutions" that threaten everyone's - whether intribe or outtribe - basic survival. These have been the "heroic" historical peoples - frat house themes that lead to real killing and money-making schemes.

[Oxymoron]

Maxim argues that the fictional account of fleeing slaves striking it out with God by their side is ahistorical, while Oxy argues that it IS historical. I have to agree with Oxymoron: it is the historical version of reality that contains magical Jews fleeing the icky other.

No the historical version paints the Hebrews as invaders who were forced out by the Egyptians.

Thing is, while this version may be historical, it isn't in any way true. It's fake, and this puts the rest of history into context.

Woot?

Common sense and actual experience have taught me that no tribe has a wonderful "solution" to mankind's "problems." So a great bulk of "heroic" history is fake. Lies that create good warriors.

Common sense and actual experience ,tell me you know nothing of which you speak.

real killing and money-making schemes.

Are you talking about the Italians?

[Oddity]

Are you talking about the Italians?

Youse guys paid us to kill that Jesus guy, and this is how you repay us?!

[Oxymoron]

Youse guys paid us to kill that Jesus guy, and this is how you repay us?!

Fuggedaboutit

[Maxim Litvinov]

It is not, look at Hyskos thread Doc.

Is too. Belief in the Exodus as historical fact certainly places you in a very small minority of academics.

[Oddity]

Is too. Belief in the Exodus as historical fact certainly places you in a very small minority of academics.

You obviously didn't read the Hyskos thread. Those who identify the Hyskos with the Hebrews are certainly not a "very small minority" of academics. There was, in all likelihood, some sort of movement out of Egypt. It is true that it almost certainly didn't happen anything like the Book of Exodus proclaims, though.

[QatzelOk]

There was, in all likelihood, some sort of movement out of Egypt

Some people may have emigrated from Egypt at one point in history.

This is what "based on a real story" amounts to.

It's like saying a story is "based on real words."

[noemon]

Those who identify the Hyskos with the Hebrews are certainly not a "very small minority" of academics.

On the contrary they are. No scholar identifies the Hyksos with the Jews. In fact whether they were even Semites, let alone Jews is based on one single name, that is theorized to be a name of a semitic language definitely of Assyrian origin. And thats where it stops.

From the Old testament we can know for sure that the Jews were definitely not the Hyksos, since the Egyptians called them "foreign rulers" or "shepherd kings", and the Jews claim they were slaves. This does not add up however one looks at it.

[Oxymoron]

From the Old testament we can know for sure that the Jews were definitely not the Hyksos, since the Egyptians called them "foreign rulers" or "shepherd kings", and the Jews claim they were slaves. This does not add up however one looks at it.

old testament wouldnt have worked if the Hebrews were portrayed as invaders.

In any case there is plenty of evidence that Hyskos are the Hebrews. Shepard Kings would be a good description of the Nomadic tribes under Abraham.

[noemon]

Em, I find it very hard to believe that some people who ruled Egypt, would later write a book to tell stories to their children and tell them that instead of rulers they were in fact slaves, and lie about being slaves instead of rulers.

That is simply bollocks in pure terms.

As for them being shepherds, that does not suffice due to the Hebrews being nomad shepherds. And its wishful thinking. As it stands there is no evidence to support such theories, only the charlatan Jacobovici claims such crap, no serious scholar, and there is no academic scholarship arguing any such thing.

You can theorize that with the Hyksos leaving Egypt, some slaves might have joined the caravans in the heat of the moment, and those slaves, if such a thing happened could have been those who came to be called Jews later on. That could be a scenario, but there is no evidence for that either.

[Oxymoron]

Em, i find it very hard to believe that some people who ruled Egypt, would later write a book to tell stories to their children and tell them that instead of rulers they were in fact slaves, and lie about being slaves instead of rulers.

It works well, to turn defeat into a victory. The slave myth is all it is a myth, Even in the old testemant the "Slaves" left egypt with lots of booty. Also why would the Egyptians just allow them to leave, obviously I dont but the whole Moses sending the plagues upon Egypt thing.

That is simply bollocks in pure terms.

Simply that is your opinion.

As for them being shepherds, that does not suffice due to the Hebrews being nomad shepherds. And its wishful thinking. As it stands there is no evidence to support such theories, only the charlatan Jacobovici claims such crap, no serious scholar, and there is no academic scholarship arguing any such thing.

Many scholars accept this theory, and just because it doesnt fit into your idealogy doesnt mean it isnt true.

[noemon]

It works well, to turn defeat into a victory. The slave myth is all it is a myth, Even in the old testemant the "Slaves" left egypt with lots of booty. Also why would the Egyptians just allow them to leave, obviously I dont but the whole Moses sending the plagues upon Egypt thing.

Who the fuck is a ruler..and tells his children that during his reign he was instead a slave?

Are you taking the piss?

And how do you magically translate that as turning defeat into a victory?

Simply that is your opinion

And the contrary is your wishful thinking that makes no sense whatsoever.

Many scholars accept this theory, and just because it doesnt fit into your idealogy doesnt mean it isnt true

What ideology(you are required to answer this question at least)? And which scholar?, in the link you posted, the only citation and the only proponent of this theory is that charlatan Jacobovici, who is ofc not a scholar, but a UFO conspiracy theorist of the history channel.