[Hindsite]

Mahmoud Abbas blows his chance at achieving peace in the Middle East
July 2, 2019

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas refuses even to talk with the Trump administration and publicly curses the president, Jared Kushner and American Ambassador David Friedman.

By refusing to talk to America and negotiate with Israel, Abbas has turned back the clock on any possibility for Palestinian statehood. Twenty years after the terrorist Yasser Arafat rejected a US-brokered offer at Camp David that would have created a fully separate nation, no such offer is even remotely being considered.

And so while Israel continues to expand its international alliances and pour concrete in disputed lands, Palestinians are reduced to throwing stones in protest. But their threats of greater violence, an all-purpose fallback for 75 years, have lost their power as Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu refuse to be intimidated.

https://nypost.com/2019/07/02/mahmoud-a ... ddle-east/


Abbas denies Palestinians refused peace talks with Israel
July 29, 2019

Abbas’ denial came after talks in Paris with French President Emmanuel Macron Friday. Abbas asked Macron to pass the message onto US President Donald Trump.

Abbas said “we didn’t reject negotiations as the Israelis claim,” adding that the Palestinian side is “ready for any confidential or public talks.”
Abbas also said “the Europeans are working seriously to substitute and fill the American (funding) gap” after the Trump administration canceled over $200 million in aid for Palestinian projects.

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1375791/middle-east

[Ter]

@annatar1914

I just support Palestinians because it's them that's having their homes taken away, their children raped, and people used as human shields not Israelis.

Also no society which requires genocide to function is "healthy" or "free".

Oh yes ?

Children raped ?
This is pure propaganda.
Prove what you said, don't just repeat the lies you hear from Arab countries and hysterical anti-Zionists. No wonder there is so much hatred.

The Arabs who get killed or maimed when attacking Israelis or storming the border do not amount to genocide. Rwanda 1994, that was a genocide. Namibia 1900, that was a genocide. Nazi Germany 1942-45, that was a genocide. Turkey 1915, that was a genocide.

[anasawad]

@JohnRawls

That a simple question to answer. Israel has no trust with a lot of countries in the region because of the 2 two armed conflicts after its creation. It is its own fault obviously but lets not pretend that France and the UK had nothing to do with it. First time it won and 2nd time it lost badly up to the point of total defeat. Both instances were stopped by the USSR and US because they were doing their superpower things.

Israel has been paranoid but the 2nd conflict made it even more so. So right now Israel is willing to ally itself to countries that they don't like but not necessarily trying and talking about fully annihilating it. If Iran did the same as the Saudis then i think that Israel would switch sides in a blink of an eye. Israel doesn't like SA very much but as long as they don't actively pursue a position of Israeli annihilation then they can bear with it. Iran on the other hand does actively pursue such a position in the country/political sphere but also by funding anti-Israel groups.

So its a no brainer for them. Since in reality, Israel has no trust in SA side and Iranian side, Israel pretty much wants to see them fight all the time so they won't point its weapons at Israel. In such a situation it will have an "Alliance" with whoever is not willing to destroy them right now and is also preferably weaker to prop them up. For there to be peace between Israel and Sunni/Shia then they need to build up some trust between each other(not going to happen as things are now) or somebody with unbeatable military needs to guarantee Israels statehood (AKA Nato but also not going to happen). So peace is not going to happen in my opinion.

This is kind of best case scenario for Israel. Basically it has to support sides in the middle east even if it doesn't like to do it to prevent a catastrophic scenario(for Israel) of somebody fully taking over the middle east. (A sort of Ottoman empire forming is the last thing Israel wants or will permit)

I agree with you on this front, however I would add that the only reason Iran is anti-Israel is because Israel is aligned both directly and indirectly with Saudi Arabia. The US had an important role in the early stages, but that diminished during the 90s as Iran, under president Khatami, attempted peace and restoration with Israel.

@Palmyrene

You support Israel? What? How is it in the interest of Lebanon for Israel to exist they literally invaded it and they're perfectly fine with doing it again.

Israel first "invaded" Lebanon with an invite from Lebanese Christians and Shias, with it's intervention savings 100s of thousands of Lebanese people.
The hostility between Lebanon and Israel is due to the actions of the south Lebanon army, not the Israeli army.

I've so far not heard of any instance where an Israeli soldier raped, enslaved, massacred people in Lebanon based on their religion. I, on the other hand, had seen Israelis directly putting themselves in a weak position to avoid civilian casualties in the 2006 war.
I would much rather prefer peace, and potentially an alliance, with Israel than any type of relationship with other countries in the region.

We can continue bashing Israel forever, and I'm sure many on this forum will confirm I bash Israel alot, heck, sometimes I go beyond just bashing.
But when it comes to an honest comparison, Israel is far far better than most other countries in the middle east in its actions.
Heck, thousands of girls in Lebanon were raped by Syrian and Palestinian fighters and soldiers during the 80s-90s period. Thousands more were butchered because they were "infidels" in Lebanon by the various Islamic groups.
There is no scenario where Israelis had done such thing thus far.
If Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon and I happened to be there during, I wouldn't have to worry about getting killed for my believes. I wouldn't have to worry about my wife being taken as a sex slave (Sabiyyah) because she's a Christian.
I wouldn't have to worry about most of my family being butchered because they were the "wrong sect".

Let's be clear here, the hostility with Israel, as far as Lebanon goes, is only temporary.
Israel, with all its faults and with all the conflicts between us, still stands as a better option to ally with when it comes to Lebanon since as far as I'm concerned, and as far as most Lebanese people are concerned, Israel hadn't made it a target to commit a genocide against us or to colonize us.
The same can't be said for most other nations and groups in the middle east currently.

This isn't "my brain on nationalism", this is the logical conclusion anyone who knows the history would come to.

[colliric]

I may not like Zionists.... But I have to admit Israeli TV produces some fine Television shows:

For subtitles, go to Netflix and watch it there....

[skinster]

Anyone who supports Israel is admitting their racism, opposition to civil rights and support for what can be considered modern day slavery. Congrats on being into apartheid also, and supporting a proto-fascist government that places millions in a concentration camp and millions more under a brutal military occupation, killing 2/3 children on average every week.

There are many more but skinster has re-tweeted so many tweets that we have PTSD and had to crawl back under the slimy stones and mouldy caves where we came from.

More support Palestine, that's why you see protests worldwide by the people in every major city when Israel goes on one of its periodic, psychotic bombing campaigns on the aforementioned concentration camp. Nearly always, if there is even a counter protest, there are usually about 5 people there compared to the hundreds/thousands out for support for Palestine.

Thanks for admitting the articles and pictures I tweet have been effective though. Just because that news isn't in the MSM, doesn't mean it's not happening, and you see people can't deny what they see after seeing them, even though some of them try and likely don't sleep well at night (unless they're as savage as those who commit the crimes they try to apologise for). The stories from those transitioning from their Zionism to anti-Zionism are always fun to read, and everywhere these days. Many are going through this process as we you read these words, especially young Jews in America. The future doesn't look bright for Zionism.

Children raped ?
This is pure propaganda.
Prove what you said, don't just repeat the lies you hear from Arab countries and hysterical anti-Zionists.

Zionist, Benny Morris, covered this. The propaganda, or hasbara, comes from your side, since I've said it over and over again: you can't polish a turd. The turd in this regard is called Israel.

[Patrickov]

Anyone who supports Israel is admitting their racism, opposition to civil rights and support for what can be considered modern day slavery. Congrats on being into apartheid also, and supporting a proto-fascist government that places millions in a concentration camp and millions more under a brutal military occupation, killing 2/3 children on average every week.

Yeah, as if support for communism, Maduro's Venezuela government and the Communist Party of China headed by Xi Jinping is any better.

[Palmyrene]

Oh yes ?

Children raped ?
This is pure propaganda.

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=176793

I've literally posted all my evidence here.

[Palmyrene]

The problem is "I condemn Israeli atrocities", "I am positive towards Palestine" and "I support Israel" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Being strong in the first two does not automatically mean the opposite of yhe latter.

That's where the "no opinion" option comes to play

Although I admit I haven't thought this poll through.

[Palmyrene]

@Palmyrene
IMO, the historical evidence suggests otherwise, dating at the very least the intention of mass murder from around the time 'Mein Kampf' was written.

I'm rather sure that while Hilter preferred to murder the Jews he shied away from it at first due to political reasons which is what I said

I'm sure you'll find plenty of Israeli government officials who would love to kill them.

Even mass murder is something that has to be built up and developed.

Israel's are doing a good job on that front.

They have non-Jewish citizens and removal of all the Muslims, while being the most logical option for their ideology of Zionism, isn't going to happen.

And why is that?

No, can't say that I do, given the history I have before me of my own region of the United States, of the removal of American Indian peoples from East of the Mississippi River to ''Indian Territory'', now the State of Oklahoma. Genocide was not the intent and while some died along the way, many more did not and their tribes were more or less intact.

European colonizers certainly did intend f decimating the indigenious population. They gave them the clothes of their sick so they may die of dieases. They took their land and inacted several policies to accelerate it. They displaced them time and time again.

And now the country which these European barbarians inhabit is considered the basition of liberty and freedom.

I support the state of Israel insofar as it protects the Jewish people and to that degree it does so, primarily.

You can protect both. There are solutions for that.

No, I am looking at the situation as dispassionately as possible. If the Israelis were consistent with their Zionist ideology they would act entirely as I said, but I don't believe they will.

Yet you think Muslims are plotting for world domination. Very dispassionate.

And quite frankly, they will if they want to.

My Christianity doesn't rise or fall with the outcomes of the future regarding Islam or Judaism or their adherents. I can find inhumanity deplorable and still be able to describe the facts around that inhumanity with a measure of both objectivity and humility.

The issue is that your support for Israel is tied to the fact that they act in the manner that they do.

No, I absolutely did not. I went to some pains to describe it as being in the context of Christ's theological dispute regarding His Authority and His Identity, with the Jews who opposed Him.

Then you oppose the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis.

See above. You are mistaken and perhaps confused, which might be a fault laid to my door if I haven't been more clear than I could have been. The irony of the analogy Christ used is that the ''Strong Man'' of his illustration (Satan) really has no right to the ''goods'' (human souls) that he tries to steal. Christ is taking from a thief, by cleansing a human mind from demonic possession. This is the context of the quote.

So nothing to do with stealing your house.

See above. My support is qualified.

It still doesn't make much sense.

Oh, there's people out there aplenty willing to bring it back, stronger than ever.

No. There aren't. The only people that do are millenarian jihadist groups but they aren't popular with a majority of Muslims.

You're making this assumption based on nothing but your strange religious beliefs.

I think the ''simplification'' is a result of the nullity of secular politics in the region, in fact, anywhere really. I however find tribes and clans to be important political factors, in reality also everywhere.

Secularism literally was the most successful political tool in the region. More than Islamism which is highly controversial and seen as violent by most common people.

The lack of secular politics is due to socio economic conditions and the response to the failure of pan-Arabism prior.

Now who's 'simplifying'?

I'm making fun of you.

Have you looked for it?

Duh. I couldn't find at all. I really want to join so I can get complimentary drinks and talk about how much I want to take over the world with Eurabia.

No, how do you get that from what I said? I'm talking about a future Palestinian State 'inheriting' what Israel has, militarily and otherwise.

Then what do think they're going to do? They're not going to nuke anyone and if it's Israel's shit they might dismantle it out of spite. Palestine may be the most non-violent place ever or it may be the most militarist placr ever.

I am. Not entirely persuaded, but i'm familiar with them and their arguments, especially Tolstoy.

Yeah Tolstoy's a beast. You should het persuaded quicker.

[annatar1914]

@Palmyrene ;

I'm rather sure that while Hilter preferred to murder the Jews he shied away from it at first due to political reasons which is what I said

Lol... Well that's not exactly what you said, but since you're coming around on that issue it's of little import.

I'm sure you'll find plenty of Israeli government officials who would love to kill them.

Most of the Israeli establishment are a bunch of wimps, self-hating assimilationist Jews who are more concerned about the influence and money of the Jewish Diaspora outside Israel, and what the politicians in Washington D.C. will think if they have to take hard measures to control the Palestinian population.

Israel's are doing a good job on that front.

No, they aren't. You and those like you just say that because you don't see just how bad it could get.

And why is that?

See my answer above regarding the servitude of the Israeli Establishment to the Liberal self-hating assimilationist Jewish Diaspora and Gentile Western politicians.

European colonizers certainly did intend f decimating the indigenious population. They gave them the clothes of their sick so they may die of dieases. They took their land and inacted several policies to accelerate it. They displaced them time and time again.

Like I said, I know the history.

And now the country which these European barbarians inhabit is considered the basition of liberty and freedom.

You know the Franks are Barbarians, with the best warriors and soldiers in history and the most deadly and destructive military science ever created, and yet some in your region wanted to draw them into war.

You can protect both. There are solutions for that.

Not seeing that, it would be about like squaring a circle.

Yet you think Muslims are plotting for world domination. Very dispassionate.

By no means all Muslims, I have known plenty in my lifetime, but always in every time and place there are a small but dedicated group people who want to affect revolutionary change. Islamist groups are an example of that.

And quite frankly, they will if they want to.

Sure, even by demographics alone, quite frankly.

The issue is that your support for Israel is tied to the fact that they act in the manner that they do.

Support or lack of support for what the Israelis do or don't do, my support of the existence of Israel in the Holy Land isn't predicated on either.

Then you oppose the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis.

I find ill-treatment of others by others to be a thing hard not to oppose. But I'm also sure it's not all one-sided and black and white one way or another.

So nothing to do with stealing your house.

Not directly, just an illustrative analogy to help explain another concept.

It still doesn't make much sense.

Sure it makes sense to have a qualified and conditional support for Israel, for the reasons I've stated.

No. There aren't. The only people that do are millenarian jihadist groups but they aren't popular with a majority of Muslims.

Popular enough that the whole region is destabilized by their activity.

You're making this assumption based on nothing but your strange religious beliefs.

Strange to you maybe, but no it has nothing to do with my religious beliefs and everything to do with theirs.

Secularism literally was the most successful political tool in the region. More than Islamism which is highly controversial and seen as violent by most common people.

I somehow doubt that, looking at the Middle East today.

The lack of secular politics is due to socio economic conditions and the response to the failure of pan-Arabism prior.

Or, rather, the lack of secular politics is due to a spiritual hunger, enabling a revival of militant Islam, because most seekers of life's ultimate questions go with that belief system most familiar to them in a moment of crisis.

I'm making fun of you.

You really shouldn't, I'm a pretty sensitive guy.

Duh. I couldn't find at all. I really want to join so I can get complimentary drinks and talk about how much I want to take over the world with Eurabia.

Give it time-not...

Then what do think they're going to do? They're not going to nuke anyone and if it's Israel's shit they might dismantle it out of spite. Palestine may be the most non-violent place ever or it may be the most militarist placr ever.

I am going to bet on militarism and nuclear blackmail

Yeah Tolstoy's a beast. You should het persuaded quicker.

Been a few decades so far of reading Leo Tolstoy, Jacques Ellul, Pierre Proudhon, so if it ever happens it might still be some time

[Palmyrene]

Delete

[Patrickov]

That's where the "no opinion" option comes to play

What I said is definitely NOT "No opinion".

Your poll is worded so that people only need to opine with regard to Israel. It is actually a good design. If forcing people into mutually exclusive camps is your true intention then I am here to defy it.

[Palmyrene]

@Palmyrene ;
Lol... Well that's not exactly what you said, but since you're coming around on that issue it's of little import.

It's exactly what I said.

Most of the Israeli establishment are a bunch of wimps, self-hating assimilationist Jews who are more concerned about the influence and money of the Jewish Diaspora outside Israel, and what the politicians in Washington D.C. will think if they have to take hard measures to control the Palestinian population.

1. This "spineless Israeli establishment" has been conducting rapes, murders, looting, property damages and massacres.

2. They should. The US, particularly the Evangelicals, are the ones lobbying and supporting Israel. Support for Israel rests on the narrative that it is akin to a besieged Constantinople; a country full of innocence and morality.

It'll be difficult to maintain support if Israel strays too far from that narrative.

No, they aren't. You and those like you just say that because you don't see just how bad it could get.

I know how it will get. This is why I oppose Israel.

See my answer above regarding the servitude of the Israeli Establishment to the Liberal self-hating assimilationist Jewish Diaspora and Gentile Western politicians.

I have. And it's because Israel serves the West that it will commit greater atrocities.

Like I said, I know the history.

It's important to learn from history. It's not enough to know it.

You know the Franks are Barbarians, with the best warriors and soldiers in history and the most deadly and destructive military science ever created, and yet some in your region wanted to draw them into war.

Hol up.

1. How is this relevant?

2. If this has to do with the Crusades, no one drew them there.

Not seeing that, it would be about like squaring a circle.

The best solution is a no state solution. No one has a state.

By no means all Muslims, I have known plenty in my lifetime, but always in every time and place there are a small but dedicated group people who want to affect revolutionary change. Islamist groups are an example of that.

Revolutionary change within their regions. Given the state of the Islamic world you can see why.

Sure, even by demographics alone, quite frankly.

Yup. But it's necessary to know that Israel doesn't exist in a vaccum. This isn't like South Africa or the US. Arabs aren't as primitive as the Zulu or Natives nor are they as "domesticated" despite the oppression inflicted upon them by their rulers.

Support or lack of support for what the Israelis do or don't do, my support of the existence of Israel in the Holy Land isn't predicated on either.

Then why do you support Israel? Say it clearly.

I find ill-treatment of others by others to be a thing hard not to oppose. But I'm also sure it's not all one-sided and black and white one way or another.

The Israeli Palestinian conflict is about as black and white as you can get. And just so you know, the Palestinians hate the Hamas and PA too.

It's almost as black and white as class conflict.

Sure it makes sense to have a qualified and conditional support for Israel, for the reasons I've stated.

So basically because you dislike Muslims more?

Popular enough that the whole region is destabilized by their activity.

Islamists groups aren't the cause, they're the symptom. There's a reason why jihadist groups gain power after countries enter civil war not before.

Strange to you maybe, but no it has nothing to do with my religious beliefs and everything to do with theirs.

I mean my religious beliefs are strange but they're not as apocalyptic as yours.

Also why do you care so much about what Israelis believe?

I somehow doubt that, looking at the Middle East today.

Then you don't know you're history as much. Dividing people by using religious unity rarely gets the support of minorities which, I may add, are incredibly powerful in the MidEast.

Secularism created countries, Islamism didn't (with exception to Iran but they're special).

Or, rather, the lack of secular politics is due to a spiritual hunger, enabling a revival of militant Islam, because most seekers of life's ultimate questions go with that belief system most familiar to them in a moment of crisis.

Then you agree it's due to socio economic conditions?

You really shouldn't, I'm a pretty sensitive guy.

Boo hoo

I am going to bet on militarism and nuclear blackmail

Who are they blackmailing exactly?

Been a few decades so far of reading Leo Tolstoy, Jacques Ellul, Pierre Proudhon, so if it ever happens it might still be some time

Read Fourier. He has weird religious beliefs like you.

[Palmyrene]

What I said is definitely NOT "No opinion".

Your poll is worded so that people only need to opine with regard to Israel. It is actually a good design. If forcing people into mutually exclusive camps is your true intention then I am here to defy it.

Do you want me to options for every single stance on Israel? That'd be rather long.

[anasawad]

"Islamism created Iran"

[Palmyrene]

"Islamism created Iran"

I'm talking about the Islamic Revolution.

I'm sure you agree there's a difference between Pahlavi Iran and Revolutionary Iran.

[anasawad]

The Islamic revolution was a revolution that combined that power of the old dynasties, the unions, the clerics, and the general public to remove an imperial dynasty and replace it with a Federal system that is built on the basis of the 2500 years old Imperial structure.

Again, don't use propaganda as your source, it's clearly false.
The reason why regime change hasn't worked so far is because Iran is already a federal system with significant local autonomy for pretty much everyone.
No one has any interest in removing a system that gives them autonomy and replaces it with a pro-American puppet that could take that autonomy away.

Heck, I can buy weed from stores in Damghan, while I'll get arrested for having a single gram on me in Qum for example.

Also, the Pahlavi dynasty (just 2) was removed because it was 1- Corrupt and treasonous, 2- Tried to consolidate power, which never works in Iran as anyone who studied its history can tell you.

[SSDR]

Islamic conquest must be stopped at All Circumstances !

[Palmyrene]

[quote="SSDR"]Islamic conquest must be stopped at All Circumstances ![/quote]

What exactly are Palestinians conquering?

[Patrickov]

Do you want me to options for every single stance on Israel? That'd be rather long.

No. What I said is this poll is already correctly designed.