[Tailz]

Seems I should put my ideals on the line here.

tailz,

Your blind trust towards the goodwill of humanity is false, and dangerous. See how many people agree with you in your home town about key issues, and be surprised! When deeper issues come into play, people tend to disagree, and even fight over things. Your "we are the world" ideal does not correspond to reality.

Firstly, I don’t blindly trust humanity, I certainly understand that there are those who’s ideals I would fight a lifetime against – but just because of that, I am not going to assume that the whole of humanity is “evil” as you seem to break the world into the good Jews and the evil gentiles. There is the potential for good and evil and all people. And I will not make a distinction on the good or evil of people by racial/religious/or ethic profiles – I will consider the individual and their own actions.

So far Danholo you have shown me that you follow the ideals of xenophobia, you wish to protect your own kind, your own people. That any action is permissible if it protects or benefits your own kind, while any criticism of such is considered a display of hate towards your own people by evil others. Yet considering this, you write me down as a utopian dreamer, because I am pushing for greater levels of understanding and tolerance between all peoples and cultures – you write that I am the one with the pipe dream. I will gladly smoke that pipe in preference to a divided xenophobic existence – and I offer the same peace pipe, to anyone willing to smoke it with me and share a desire for freedom and equality of all people!

Who will smoke this pipe with me?

[Holding]

Give more context for freedom and equality as to define them.

[Dr House]

Other: I find both freedom and equality undesirable.

Also, smoking is bad for you.

[Tailz]

Give more context for freedom and equality as to define them.

Freedom of speech and expression, Freedom of religion, Freedom from want, Freedom from fear. Liberty, the condition in which an individual has the ability to act according to his or her own will. To be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people.

[Holding]

While I'm sure House was trying to be funny, I'm finding myself neither desiring the existance of the freedom and equality that you describe.

Plus, smoking is bad for you.

[NYYS]

No. I like freedom but greatly dislike financial equality

[Truth-a-naut]

Why do some people think everyone has some innate qualities making them deserving of freedom or equality?

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Other: Freedom and equality make for nice soundbites because their connotations are good, but whenever I think of freedom and equality, I think of degenerates doing annoying things as well as a system where you are not given the full extent of what you've earned. I don't think I'd want to live anywhere where peoples unfettered desires are allowed to spark into pure hedonism, and I wish we could go back to a time when everyone was subjected to the slightest whims of everyone else via democracy.

Of course I don't wish for arbitrary things to be controlled, but I would want an option to control them if they ever became a problem. I trust people to run their own affairs, to a point, but I also trust people to be complete idiots and act in their own self-interest. In my opinion, you shouldn't force people to do something they don't want, you should give them an incentive to do what's best for them, both in the short term and the long term.

And smoking is bad for you, by the way.

[Tailz]

Moderation I think is the word to sum up your comments Cheesecake_Marmalade. I totaly agree, we can not force people to be nice to each other, or to be good people, or not to be idiots. Of cource I do not wish the world to fall into complete chaos in search of a basic level of freedom and equality, for then anothers freedom would become a prision to others - thus moderation is key.

[Donna]

Why do some people think everyone has some innate qualities making them deserving of freedom or equality?

I wonder the same thing when I hear people bitching about Muslim customs.

[Truth-a-naut]

I wonder the same thing when I hear people bitching about Muslim customs.

Or in favour of them.

[Donna]

Or in favour of them.

So you do favor freedom and equality then, right?

[Nets]

The difference between you and Danholo is that you focus on the individual, whereas he desires freedom and equality amongst the nations. I tend to side with his view, and do view you Tailz as a Utopian dreamer. Not for your ideals, which are good, but because you keep trying to impose Switzerland on the Middle East.

[Donna]

Most of my discussions with tailz about the ME usually involve appeals to pragmatism.

[The Immortal Goon]

I desire freedom and equality

How can you disagree with this? Even if you don't think it's probable, it's a pretty decent goal.

[Zyx]

My virgin lungs will mouth the pipe after your puff, tailz.

Smoking may be bad, but living in a world where others are oppressed is too.

So, if I can not be free, unless my comrades are free, and this smoke means a freedom to my comrades, then:

Give me Liberty, or Give me Death.

[Varax]

Not only are freedom and equality pipe dreams, but I don’t find them to be all too desirable concepts to begin with. Especially not in any absolute form. People are not innately equal at all and trying to enforce some type of equality does more harm than good. Essentially you’re reducing it down to the lowest common denominator, and it is woefully inefficient thing to try and do. 'Freedom' has always been something of a sticky catch-word for me. Too much freedom can come at an expense of structure, order, etc. Even in societies that pride themselves on freedom, limits exist in order to maintain the structural backbone.

I also agree with what Truth-a-naut said.

[Nattering Nabob]

Who will smoke this pipe with me?

*takes so large a hit off the pipe that peripheral vision begins to fade*

[danholo]

Firstly, I don’t blindly trust humanity, I certainly understand that there are those who’s ideals I would fight a lifetime against – but just because of that, I am not going to assume that the whole of humanity is “evil” as you seem to break the world into the good Jews and the evil gentiles. There is the potential for good and evil and all people. And I will not make a distinction on the good or evil of people by racial/religious/or ethic profiles – I will consider the individual and their own actions.

Yet the reality is that the world operates alongside racial, religious and every profile there is. I am a Jew, and this seemingly annoys you since I want to live as a Jew, among Jews, so I can build a Jewish life for my children. No matter how you want to see it, the enlightened world sees Jewish ritual as backwards and stupid. In other words, we have to pry out our soul so we can live a hollow facade where the soul is suppressed under an acceptable shell. I don't want to see my children going into an endless life of stress and money, lacking any soul whatsoever. No matter how much I try to believe in this "one world" myself, it just doesn't work. Honestly, the tower of Babel was destroyed for a reason, because its purpose was hollow, and selfish.

So far Danholo you have shown me that you follow the ideals of xenophobia, you wish to protect your own kind, your own people. That any action is permissible if it protects or benefits your own kind, while any criticism of such is considered a display of hate towards your own people by evil others. Yet considering this, you write me down as a utopian dreamer, because I am pushing for greater levels of understanding and tolerance between all peoples and cultures – you write that I am the one with the pipe dream. I will gladly smoke that pipe in preference to a divided xenophobic existence – and I offer the same peace pipe, to anyone willing to smoke it with me and share a desire for freedom and equality of all people!

I smoke pot. I've smoked pot for almost every day for 8 years now. I, as a consumer of marijuana, am a criminal, in most parts of the world. This medicine is frankly seen many parts of the world as evil. I am evil although I've done nothing wrong. This is what I learned in enlightened Western Finland. This itself shows me how twisted this world is. Frankly man, I am a POT HEAD. A drug addict. Whatever you want to call it. I don't know how the substance has affected me but I can admit that I think so much, all the time, fighting an existential and moral battle within myself vis-a-vis my own standing in this world, then the role of my family, then my people, then humanity. While I try to understand, deeply, what one's purpose is having to shift from internal to external; me, as a Jew, among Jewry and me, as human among Jewry and humanity. I come to Israel and don't frankly see it as a bad place. It's a little different, a little more crazy, but the people are good and want to live free, productive lives. In other words, I like this life. I can be a Jew here, something which I can't be anywhere else. I'd have to hide my Jewish identity constantly among Gentiles, who'd view it as odd, foreign or stupid. This Jewishness is strong within me and nothing you say or do will change this fact. Here is where I feel you misunderstand me, as you don't quite know how weird it is being a Jew in some places in the world. This is why I appreciate the Jewish attitude towards other nations. As you know, the Jew is not supposed to proselytize his way of life towards the Gentile. This is not to say that wisdom should not be shared, but respect towards the other should be maintained. You, on the other hand, want to go "above this", to create something new, where our differences are so blurred that we become one unit. I cannot internalize this wholly as my view of history is a collective memory for peoples and humanity. The fact remains that only a people will maintain his own identity and memory, while every nation borrows from each other. We live in our own reality, and see this place through our own eyes. Only we can help the people we know and only through our own memories do our loved ones exist. You should not be expected to help my sister when she is in need of help, as neither her, nor I, have met you. You will never know my mother, and only I can give to this world what she gave me, which I will cherish for life. We do not share memories together. This, of course, is unfortunate but extremely human.

Who will smoke this pipe with me?

I will share my mother's existence with you, as I know it. I am pretty sure humanity will be at odds with each other on how to lead the best life for a better reality. I cannot stress more how I would prefer a rational discourse among all peoples which would end in a world peace unheard of in human history. Yet I do not see the end of world strife any time soon. Do you? Even I am such a weak individual in strength, and even in will, to encounter all hardships in life so I could attain a better future for myself and humanity. Some people try to do this every day, only to encounter so many disappointments. Life is something to cherish here, and preserving memory is the only thing we can do, as that is our very existence. I will not be sorry for the Palestinians in acknowledging the need for a Jewish state in the world. At the same time I have an extremely hard time having to acknowledge our plight being in direct relation to the plight to a handful of Arabs whose rights have not been able to materialize for whatever reason. I see that as an existential issue for me, now, as I protect my own memory. It's funny how we all fight for our own right way, isn't it?

[Oxymoron]

Too generic, can you be more specific.

Its like having a poll asking : Do you like

a. Breathing air

or

b. Eating shit sandwiches .