[Sephardi]

If you could have one former or current United States President be your President for life or Dictator, who would you choose? This is if you either have to pick one or the other, so please refrain from picking other unless you really have no answer here.

I'd have to pick Teddy Roosevelt.

[Jackal]

Theodore Roosevelt.

For he was the man.

[Sephardi]

Yep. I can't wait to see who will vote Barack Obama.

[Jackal]

Yep. I can't wait to see who will vote Barack Obama.

Le Rouge.

[Figlio di Moros]

Teddy, hands down...

[Red_Army]

Definitely none of the imperialist stooges listed above.

I voted none/anarchy.

[Figlio di Moros]

So, where does the Panama Canal, anti-trust laws, TVA, etc. fit in to your idealic view of the past?

[Wolfman]

How are Jefferson and Washington imperialist stooges Red Army?

Anyways, I don't trust the idea of a leadership for life, so I voted other (I don't like the idea of a headless state or Anarchy either).

[The Immortal Goon]

1. Both he and FDR were in charge for the rest of their lives anyway.
2. If we play the "well, he has to live unnaturally long" game, then Lincoln still. He would have probably eventually pressed for the black vote, and kept Sherman's Special Field Order 15 - thus doing a lot to avoid a century of apartheid and embarrassment for the US.
3. Lincoln had some pretty unchecked power as it was anyway, and I think things were better that way than when Johnson took over.

[Wolfman]

He was also a racist who only went over slavery because it was in the special interests who elected him.

[Red_Army]

Figlio, I'm not saying every action that every president took was horrible, but Teddy was a total imperialist, started the Spanish American War, , banana republics, etc. I mean, are you kidding me?

How are Jefferson and Washington imperialist stooges Red Army?

They may have been less imperialist (Washington anyway), but his actions in Shay's rebellion, disenfranchisement of non-propertied males, blacks, natives, women, etc were all fucked. These were not idyllic leaders, but murderers and greedy exploiters.

Jefferson's imperialism is also obvious: The Louisiana Purchase, Lewis and Clark expeditions, Barbary pirates, etc.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Lincoln, because I'm pretty sure he'd be a socialist if he was alive today. If we are speaking in the context of them ruling when they were alive, I'd be pretty interested to know what his policies would have been in the South during the reconstruction era.

He was also a racist who only went over slavery because it was in the special interests who elected him.

Your point being? He got rid of slavery because it was a more primitive mode of production than capitalism, nothing wrong with that. Morally there's nothing that makes it particularly bad compared to wage slavery, feudalism, or any of the other various forms of economic exploitation.

[Wolfman]

Shay's rebellion

Was before Washington was President. I was under the impression that you were referring to actions taken during there Presidency.

disenfranchisement of non-propertied males, blacks, natives, women, etc were all fucked

Right, but that was set in the Constitution, and was largely out of the control of Washington during his Presidency.

Jefferson's imperialism is also obvious: The Louisiana Purchase, Lewis and Clark expeditions, Barbary pirates, etc

The Louisiana Purchase was not Imperialism, as we bought it from the French, and there was no coercion involved. Also, the Barbary Wars was started from the Pirates capturing ships and ransoming off the crews. And since we did not capture the territory, or anything of the like, this was hardly an imperialist act.

Your point being? He got rid of slavery because it was a more primitive mode of production than capitalism, nothing wrong with that.

Ending one form of exploitation to replace it with another is fine with you?

[Figlio di Moros]

Figlio, I'm not saying every action that every president took was horrible, but Teddy was a total imperialist, started the Spanish American War, , banana republics, etc. I mean, are you kidding me?

The Spanish-American War was started under McKinney, although he did lead the Rough Riders for Cuban independance, and under his presidency he aided the Panamanian independence, anti-trust and monopoly laws, food and medical standards, etc. Teddy was larger than life, but where was he actually imperialist?

How are Jefferson and Washington imperialist stooges Red Army?

They may have been less imperialist (Washington anyway), but his actions in Shay's rebellion, disenfranchisement of non-propertied males, blacks, natives, women, etc were all fucked. These were not idyllic leaders, but murderers and greedy exploiters.

Standard fair for the time; were you expecting a communist revolution fifty years before Marx and Engel and a few decades prior to the Industrial Revolution?

As far as Shay's rebellion, how was that "imperialist", as well?

Jefferson's imperialism is also obvious: The Louisiana Purchase, Lewis and Clark expeditions, Barbary pirates, etc.

Uh, how are any of those "imperialist" as well? The Louisiana Purchase was expansionist, but largely unoccupied territory, and paying for explorers isn't "imperialism". Neither is fighting pirates who are stealing your ships and holding them for ransom.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Ending one form of exploitation to replace it with another is fine with you?

Fine? You're implying that I have some kind of moral judgment against exploitation. I am against exploitation because it directly affects me and the class that I am in. I also don't think that it's beneficial for increasing industrialization and economic advancement to have everyone's goal be to do the least amount of work for the most amount of capital. There are positive aspects to capitalism, especially economic growth, but inequality causes stagnation.

Slavery is a more primitive mode of production, thus advancing from slavery was a positive outcome of the civil war that Lincoln saw to. The idea that because he was working for the interests of his own class that somehow negates his accomplishment is not academic in the least. Motives are abstract and frivolous.

[Beren]

I'm not the smartest fellow in the world, but I can sure pick smart colleagues.

[Captain Sam]

FDR.

[The Immortal Goon]

He was also a racist who only went over slavery because it was in the special interests who elected him.

This view has become cool on the internet lately, but it's not accurate. In the context of the time, he wasn't a racist at all. He was slower coming over to the radical abolitionist position than only a small minority - and had he been a radical republican off the bat, he never would have been president.

The fact is that before running for senate (let alone president) he made his position about slavery very clear. He moderated to run for president later - as most people do - and he was slow adopting some policies, but he was always right there. His last public appearance touched on the vote extending to blacks. He also famously bowed to a black woman, which was quite the scandal.

Though I hate to cite Wikipedia, they site Berwanger - whom I've seen on TV saying the same thing - when he said:

[url="[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_on_slavery]Berwanger[/url]"]During his presidency, Lincoln took a reasoned course which helped the federal government both destroy slavery and advance the cause of black suffrage. For a man who had denied both reforms four years earlier, Lincoln's change in attitude was rapid and decisive. He was both open-minded and perceptive to the needs of his nation in a postwar era. Once committed to a principle, Lincoln moved toward it with steady, determined progress. [/url]

So by the modern conception, he was probably like most people's grandparents. In the day, he was pretty fucking progressive. And, as I've said before, I don't care if he liberated the slaves to win a bet. The fact is that he did it. And, as far as we can tell, he was growing increasingly forward and in favour of granting increased rights upon them. Unlike, say, everyone else who was president thenceforth until Nixon or Kennedy.

[ninurta]

I picked none, if I let someone sit in power for their whole life, who knows what they'd do.

[mordechaj]

Obama. He is right guy for a job.