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Polls on politics, news, current affairs and history.

Which poll option reflects your view (everything that's free is paid for by the state)

Women should get free abortions and free birth control drugs even during a deficit.
16
57%
Women should get free abortions and free birth control drugs within a balanced budget.
2
7%
Women should get free abortion only if under the age.
No votes
0%
Women should never get free abortion and free birth control drugs even if the state has the available funds.
3
11%
Other (please elaborate)
7
25%
#13901559
Pants-of-dog wrote:Using that logic, I am a much better judge than you about every aspect of your life, as I have no skin in the game, so to speak.

You should make me autocratic ruler of your life.


Again, we learn why PoD got divorced.
#13901607
R_G, I do think that we are having a case of very different moral bases that we are approaching this issue from, so I'll answer the questions no problem.

R_G wrote:Jesus I can't even wrap my head around your so called arguments, I have to imagine I'm talking to a machine that has no idea what human emotion or social conduct is.

It's not that I lack any of those things, it's just that they are based on different assumptions entirely, so we end up arguing with equal passion for the exact opposite things.

I think the abortion debate in particular really brings out the difference between the two camps.

R_G wrote:Serious question Rei Murasame, what is your relationship with your parents?

I'll answer this, no problem. I was and am very clingy and close to my mother. She gave me an absolutely fantastic childhood and really made sure that I "had everything my heart was set on". Naturally, this didn't come without responsibilities, but I was more than equal to the task, my school performance was very good.

My only quarrels with my mother crop up at times when she isn't paying attention to something that I think she should be paying attention to, and so I tend to be rather time-demanding with her. I think she just bears with it, since having me constantly trying to talk to her was/is markedly better than having some rebel child that refuses to listen or obey. I was really a model child for her, and she earned it by being a good parent.

My father was a real flamboyant 'man of the world', he used to travel a lot, and so he'd always come back from places with items that he'd say "I found this in Peru", or "I got you this when I was India", or whatever. He really lived life in the fast lane, he was busy and did what he had to do. I can only fault him on his rather cavalier approach to his own health, which was led to his undoing in the end. His circumstances death were avoidable, but I guess hindsight is 20-20. I won't hold a grudge against him for striving hard and pushing himself to the limit.

He was a person that had lots of secrets that needed to be guarded though, a lot of family-politics in the wider extended family seem to revolve around things that he or my grandfather did or were involved in.

There's a certain amount of pressure that I feel to make sure that I don't do anything that will render vain the sacrifices made by other family members to advance our position in life.

In short, I have no problems with my parents.

R_G wrote:No wonder they felt the need to massacre the Chinese and made the right deals with the Americans so their historical atrocities are slowly but surely forgotten by anyone who is outside of China.

Well, let me put it this way. In Leicester, everyone in this city was likely involved in something at some point in time which liberal morality of today would find to be abhorrent. You would be hard-pressed to find anyone that wasn't invested in carrying out a war at some point in recent history, and that can sometimes involve causing a lot of people to die.

But in the end, everyone is struggling because they think that their way is the right way. I have a number of friends whose families were involved in various... things... and I can assure you that we are all very cognisant that it's serious business, so no one would ever make a joke of things that were done.

It's possible to dislike the actions but love the cause, but sometimes we just have to accept that it was shoot or be shot.

______________________

R_G wrote:It's comparable to how some graduates have to repay student loans in full every month and others get assistance in the government paying off their interest and deferring monthly payments.

Well, the poorer students need that assistance, right?

R_G wrote:I think you're in the mindset that pregnancy is an easy afterthought of sex. If a woman really didn't want to have children, she will take the proper pre-cautions. If every woman who didn't want to have children took birth control pills abortion rates would decrease substantially.

Sure, but no one can guarantee that they will always do that, so abortion is still on the table. Naturally birth control pills are preferable since they cost the treasury less, but some people are going to fail at that anyway, so they will still need to use abortion.

R_G wrote:Women who get abortions purely on the basis that their boyfriend or husband left them are weak individuals and their child shouldn't suffer for it.

If they are so 'weak' then the last thing I'd want them to do is have a child that they think they can't deal with.

R_G wrote:There exist enough government support programs that will help a woman in any financial situation to support a child

And I'm sure women do factor that into their decision. However, if they still don't like it, then that's that, they are going to terminate it anyway.

R_G wrote:or there's adoption.

Forcing a woman to put her genes into a carrier combined with some man's genes that she may or may not want to have combined it with, and then having to give the child away, compromises the fundamental blood-ties between relatives and the sovereignty of an extended family over its own genetic profile.

In my morality, it is actually more moral to guard your gene pool and terminate accidents, than to just let unplanned things happen.

If a child becomes orphaned and has to be adopted, that's fine, but carrying an accident for nine months that they and no-one else in their extended family wants, just to give it up for adoption, is a preposterous waste of calories and time and is a genetic throwaway.

They could terminated it and thus bring a swift end to the problem, rather than wasting everyone's time and money and bringing embarrassment to everyone.

R_G wrote:I tend to look at pregnancy as a very strong contract that cannot be broken once signed and the standard time period has passed where one could still opt to get out of it.

But we have the technology to terminate it at almost any time, so why limit yourself?

I'm pretty sure that if some family member of yours managed to make a mistake, you would go to their house and counsel in favour of abortion over a nice cup of tea, right?

There are very tactful ways to raise the subject, to check to make sure that they agree with you. Fortunately, it's never happened in my family, but if it did happen, I would likely be the one that would be sent as the cleaner (hah), and it would be up to me to make sure that the person understands that it's the family's desire to support her in quickly getting rid of the problem.

I'm pretty sure that I could convey that message to someone in a warm and non-offensive way if I were asked to.
#13901686
R G

Your posts confuse me a little. Is your objection to free abortions based on morality or economics, or both. Bear in mind, it takes two to tango and the father of the child will be on the hook for child support until the child becomes an adult, even if they were responsible, and used protection that fails. Bear in mind that the taxpayer will pay less for the abortion than s/he ever will just for the prenatal/delivery costs, never mind schooling, health care etc.

I'm no fan of abortions, either, ftr
#13901698
Stormsmith wrote:R G

Your posts confuse me a little. Is your objection to free abortions based on morality or economics, or both. Bear in mind, it takes two to tango and the father of the child will be on the hook for child support until the child becomes an adult, even if they were responsible, and used protection that fails. Bear in mind that the taxpayer will pay less for the abortion than s/he ever will just for the prenatal/delivery costs, never mind schooling, health care etc.

I'm no fan of abortions, either, ftr


Can you explain how morality and economics are separate? People have to be psychologically motivated to produce whether in terms of paying taxes, supporting children, creating children, or just in general.
#13902022
Morality involves the branch of philosophuy called ethics. Economics, economic theories are a different sort of fish. There are instances where one influences the other, times when one acts without the slightest whiff of the other. Hedonists tend to have a little difficulty in discerning the difference, and like to sit in their philosophic closets, tiresomely dreaming up why altruism is a myth. Don't do that. It doesn't pay very well, and its crowded with twerps.
#13902039
Rei Murasame wrote:I'll answer this, no problem. I was and am very clingy and close to my mother. She gave me an absolutely fantastic childhood and really made sure that I "had everything my heart was set on". Naturally, this didn't come without responsibilities, but I was more than equal to the task, my school performance was very good.

My only quarrels with my mother crop up at times when she isn't paying attention to something that I think she should be paying attention to, and so I tend to be rather time-demanding with her. I think she just bears with it, since having me constantly trying to talk to her was/is markedly better than having some rebel child that refuses to listen or obey. I was really a model child for her, and she earned it by being a good parent.


My parents divorced when I was two and I have had shady father figures, my most favorite was an alcoholic who I remember fondly but was indeed a bum. I think if any child receives substantial love and attention from even parent they will be sufficiently well off on the emotional side.

Well, let me put it this way. In Leicester, everyone in this city was likely involved in something at some point in time which liberal morality of today would find to be abhorrent. You would be hard-pressed to find anyone that wasn't invested in carrying out a war at some point in recent history, and that can sometimes involve causing a lot of people to die.

But in the end, everyone is struggling because they think that their way is the right way. I have a number of friends whose families were involved in various... things... and I can assure you that we are all very cognisant that it's serious business, so no one would ever make a joke of things that were done.

It's possible to dislike the actions but love the cause, but sometimes we just have to accept that it was shoot or be shot.


I doubt this, I think a lot of people in Germany supported the holocaust, I sure as hell no the Poles still hate Jews on a general basis. I believe this to be the same with Japanese-Chinese relationships. Most westerners don't get this but I doubt the two ethnicities will ever be friendly with eachother.

Well, the poorer students need that assistance, right?


Yeah, but they're getting assistance on school loans and are indeed poor. Assistance to poor people who want to have sex is there too, it's called free condoms at the lobby.

Sure, but no one can guarantee that they will always do that, so abortion is still on the table. Naturally birth control pills are preferable since they cost the treasury less, but some people are going to fail at that anyway, so they will still need to use abortion.


Hence why I don't like my taxes going towards helping idiots get a late chance at reversing a mistake they should themselves pay for.

If they are so 'weak' then the last thing I'd want them to do is have a child that they think they can't deal with.


Adoption.

And I'm sure women do factor that into their decision. However, if they still don't like it, then that's that, they are going to terminate it anyway.


One word, selfish. Why should my taxes go towards paying off a gambler's debts? Same issue.

Forcing a woman to put her genes into a carrier combined with some man's genes that she may or may not want to have combined it with, and then having to give the child away, compromises the fundamental blood-ties between relatives and the sovereignty of an extended family over its own genetic profile.

In my morality, it is actually more moral to guard your gene pool and terminate accidents, than to just let unplanned things happen.

If a child becomes orphaned and has to be adopted, that's fine, but carrying an accident for nine months that they and no-one else in their extended family wants, just to give it up for adoption, is a preposterous waste of calories and time and is a genetic throwaway.

They could terminated it and thus bring a swift end to the problem, rather than wasting everyone's time and money and bringing embarrassment to everyone.


Well now this is pure opinion. I think the child is better off alive than dead, that's my opinion. Not to mention the many cases of women rekindling their relationship with children they gave up for adoption years later. Point of the matter is you give them life instead of death, pretty cut and dry.

But we have the technology to terminate it at almost any time, so why limit yourself?


My taxes.

I'm pretty sure that if some family member of yours managed to make a mistake, you would go to their house and counsel in favour of abortion over a nice cup of tea, right?


I would not. And I state this by not some hypothetical grounds but by real life lessons. A very good friend of mine who had his ex-girlfriend lie to him about using birth control wanted her to get an abortion, I told him he should let her decide and was personally in favor of her keeping the baby.

He now loves the kid and I came to celebrate his 2nd birthday. Wonderful kid and my buddy loves him, I brought up the conversation we had years ago and he told me i was right.

I have several other examples that aren't so close to my heart, such as a distant friend of mine who's girlfriend was pregnant and wanted the abortion, I told my fiance at the time to talk to her, she ended up keeping the baby. Again, the guy is a very happy father.


Stormsmith wrote:R G
Your posts confuse me a little. Is your objection to free abortions based on morality or economics, or both. Bear in mind, it takes two to tango and the father of the child will be on the hook for child support until the child becomes an adult, even if they were responsible, and used protection that fails. Bear in mind that the taxpayer will pay less for the abortion than s/he ever will just for the prenatal/delivery costs, never mind schooling, health care etc.

I'm no fan of abortions, either, ftr


I'm a Libertarian. I believe there is no finite morality or natural laws and thus my opinion nor anyone's opinion is the definite correct one.

I just have tremendous issue with MY money being used for something I am against. If there was some guarantee that my taxes only go towards legitimate abortions then I wouldn't have an issue but the fact my taxes could be used to aid a woman to have an abortion for no reason other than she screwed up her birth control and doesn't want kids despite good income....the thought makes me extremely angry.

Luckily I partake in many tax detuctable activities so most of my taxes are going towards shit I approve of. In a general sense it won't be so hard when I have higher income because I'll just donate more to Right to Play or a few other charity programs.

But I have many friends who have the same issue but don't have the time to choose charities and do all the donation work.

I just feel such a 50/50 issue shouldn't receive any government funding. It's contradictory to democracy.
#13902280
R_G wrote:That is a laughable story Maas, the biggest reason being I don't for a second buy a woman that taunts and hates her kid that much keeping it. A woman can give her child up for adoption at 6 years old, I'm not sure of the actual limitations so it can keep going. So this crazy woman who hated her kid so much was most likely screwed in the head and hence child services should have taken the child.

Your example is a very weak one and even still a very RARE one. These stories should never be the basis of an argument if that was your goal.

R_G, you're just so far off from reality.

This is what domestic violence and child abuse is about. It is not very rare, but common enough that western countries got has a whole range of institutions battling against what happens behind closed doors. The cold numbers about this speak for themselves. It is a good argument.

And this aint no story. The child, well she is 28 now, is part of my extended family and verry real.


I'm not baffled about your "ignorence". This entire subject is pritty much a complete taboo.
IMHO its not likely you get to meet people who just start a casual talk about how they raised their kids up like that. Or get to meet a person who says her childhood was like that. My relative only talked about this with me just once so far... and only because I asked rahter straight forward with about 10 curious cousins around me.
#13902298
R_G wrote:A very good friend of mine who had his ex-girlfriend lie to him about using birth control wanted her to get an abortion, I told him he should let her decide and was personally in favor of her keeping the baby.

He now loves the kid and I came to celebrate his 2nd birthday. Wonderful kid and my buddy loves him, I brought up the conversation we had years ago and he told me i was right.

I have several other examples that aren't so close to my heart, such as a distant friend of mine who's girlfriend was pregnant and wanted the abortion, I told my fiance at the time to talk to her, she ended up keeping the baby. Again, the guy is a very happy father.

I think it's interesting that you've posted two examples of men who are now happy parents.

Would you find it equally convincing if I posted case histories of women who are now happy mums because their boyfriends had been denied vasectomies?
#13902364
R_G wrote:I just have tremendous issue with MY money being used for something I am against. If there was some guarantee that my taxes only go towards legitimate abortions then I wouldn't have an issue but the fact my taxes could be used to aid a woman to have an abortion for no reason other than she screwed up her birth control and doesn't want kids despite good income....the thought makes me extremely angry.

I see. Everyone has issues with the distribution of tax dollars. Me, since whether I personnally like abortions or not, I'd sooner let the woman decide the fate of her child, and if she chooses abortion, so be it. It is her lawful, if awful, right. The taxpayer won't pay to educate an unwanted child, nor pay +20 years of medical bills.
#13902686
Stormsmith wrote:I see. Everyone has issues with the distribution of tax dollars. Me, since whether I personnally like abortions or not, I'd sooner let the woman decide the fate of her child, and if she chooses abortion, so be it. It is her lawful, if awful, right. The taxpayer won't pay to educate an unwanted child, nor pay +20 years of medical bills.


Well like I said I do a substantial amount of charity work and donations ( to minimize the amount of my tax that goes into God knows where ).

I have no issue with social programs aimed towards providing assistance to kids in need.

Our government wastes taxes on a whole stack of garbage that is far worse. FAR worse.
#13902700
Red Barn wrote:I have several other examples that aren't so close to my heart, such as a distant friend of mine who's girlfriend was pregnant and wanted the abortion, I told my fiance at the time to talk to her, she ended up keeping the baby. Again, the guy is a very happy father.

I think it's interesting that you've posted two examples of men who are now happy parents.

Would you find it equally convincing if I posted case histories of women who are now happy mums because their boyfriends had been denied vasectomies?[/quote]

If you mean happy mothers because they kept the baby? Yes I've met my fair share of those too. But I have a lot less close female friends.

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