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Where would your foreign policy ideas fit on this spectrum?

Idealist
8
22%
Realist
18
49%
Isolationist
7
19%
Other
4
11%
#13905560
Fraqtive42 wrote:I think that it depends on the libertarian, and the ethical viewpoint that they subscribe to. For example, a utilitarian libertarian may demonstrate realist policies, whilst a natural rights libertarian may be fond of idealism.

On a side note, what exactly is neolibertarianism? :?: I couldn't find a wiki article.

Indeed, I disagree with none of this, and it's precisely what I base my calculation on. Note that the vast bulk of neolibertarians are utilitarian, being economically informed more by Chicago School thinkers than Austrian ones and politically more aligned with the Cato-Reason axis than the Mises Institute crowd. I base this on such interventionist libertarans as: Neal Boortz, Larry Elder, Tom Palmer, Brink Lindsey, Dan Drezner, John Hospers, and to a certain extent Wayne Allyn Root though he's backing off the "libertarian" label quite quickly.

Natural rights libertarians tend to be Ron Paul sorts, who are classified as isolationist per this typology and certainly do not believe in the democratization-based intervention of neoconservative/liberal idealism. The exception among natural rights libertarians are Objectivists who would indeed be idealist, but reject the "libertarian" label and thus are not quite neolibertarian.

Neolibertarianism: http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=650 As you can see, it's an explicitly realist geopolitical outlook.
#13905567
Harold Saxon wrote:Indeed, I disagree with none of this, and it's precisely what I base my calculation on. Note that the vast bulk of neolibertarians are utilitarian, being economically informed more by Chicago School thinkers than Austrian ones and politically more aligned with the Cato-Reason axis than the Mises Institute crowd. I base this on such interventionist libertarans as: Neal Boortz, Larry Elder, Tom Palmer, Brink Lindsey, Dan Drezner, John Hospers, and to a certain extent Wayne Allyn Root though he's backing off the "libertarian" label quite quickly.

The five categories of libertarians that I've noticed are: rule utilitarians (most common), radicalized Classical Liberals, Objectivists, Hoppe-ites or Rothbardians, and rule egoists. Utilitarians definitely do seem to be the most common, maybe followed by either the radical Classical Liberals or the Rothbardians/Hoppe-ites.

Harold Saxon wrote:Natural rights libertarians tend to be Ron Paul sorts, who are classified as isolationist per this typology and certainly do not believe in the democratization-based intervention of neoconservative/liberal idealism. The exception among natural rights libertarians are Objectivists who would indeed be idealist, but reject the "libertarian" label and thus are not quite neolibertarian.

Neolibertarianism: http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=650 As you can see, it's an explicitly realist geopolitical outlook.

I noticed my mischaracterization of natural rights libertarianism as soon as I clicked the submit button -- they almost always are isolationists. I wonder why though -- would it be inconsistent with this ethical justification of NAP to use military or economic sanctions in order to make sure that these rights aren't violated?

Neolibertarianism is indeed a realist philosophy, going by the link's definition.
#13905569
Idealism. A kind of muscular idealism - the kind of idealism that tries to build relationships with other countries, but from time to time, sends Seal Team Six in without the permission of the local government to shoot bin Laden in the head and bomb the shit out of Libya in a somewhat broad interpretation of a UN mandate.
#13905600
realist

and I would agree w the OP that idealism can be a useful tactic inside the realism umbrella. But so can isolationism. But at the end of the day the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Who you are and what you believe or feel or want is nice to know but irrelevant. Only what you do matters.
#13906468
1) There is no such thing as neolibertarians, it is just a word invented by people wanting to try and be unique. Libertarianism is about freedom, just because you stick the word neo or new before it changes nothing.

2) People need to stop distorting the word isolationism, it has nothing to do with Ron Paul or libertarianism, here is the wikipedia entry on the concept:

Isolationism is the policy or doctrine of isolating one's country from the affairs of other nations by declining to enter into alliances, foreign economic commitments, foreign trade, international agreements, etc.


What libertarians are is non-interventionists since governments spending money of people living in their country on saving people in other countries abridges property rights.

Fraqtive42 wrote:I noticed my mischaracterization of natural rights libertarianism as soon as I clicked the submit button -- they almost always are isolationists.


You dont understand what isolationism is.

Fraqtive42 wrote:I wonder why though -- would it be inconsistent with this ethical justification of NAP to use military or economic sanctions in order to make sure that these rights aren't violated?


Yes the government stealing money from people in order to save some far off shithole of a country does actually violate the NAP.
Last edited by Kman on 27 Feb 2012 11:08, edited 1 time in total.
#13906470
Other: Proletarian Internationalism/Insurrectionism

The poll is essentially asking how one thinks the state should act toward other states. For those of us who oppose the state as an illegitimate entity, the question takes on a different meaning. I support the efforts of workers everywhere to overthrow systems of oppression in whatever nation-state they happen to inhabit.
#13907068
Paradigm, if you really want genuine, highly intellectual discussion on international proletarianism, consult a Maoist, Jose Maria Sison, former Chairman of the Communist Party of the Philippines-New People's Army which has been waging a proletarian armed struggle in the Philippines since the 1960s. A revolutionary situation has been achieved and has resulted in a stalemate. The Armed Forces of the Philippines are now helpless in the countryside waylaided either by ambushes or landmines. Credit goes to the greatest international proletarian theoretician, the great Jose Maria Sison! Chief theoretician and military tactician, Angel Formoso (me) is also credited with causing every bourgoisie and petty bourgoisie to amass wealth either through legal or moral means but mostly by graft and corruption by pitting them with a rich communist whom I advertised as "abasing the petty bourgoisie" with "do you have money"...Nobody wanted to be abased because it is really humiliating to be walking on the streets only to be able to afford public transportation while these rich communists named Teodoro and his father Marcelo Fernando parade their Mercedes Benzes to these poor pro-bourgoisie and pro-democratic capitalist University of the Philippines students and cigarette and food vendors. I did it! I caused division! Why did they do it in the first place (graft and corruption to be able to afford cars). Judgment Day starring Arnold Scwarzzeneger (Jose Maria Sison)
#13913472
Isolationism: Isolationists believe that they have no right to interfere in the affairs of other nations, except directly for self-defense. They aren't interested in spreading ideology, or expanding their influence abroad. This is distinct from realism in that realists are amenable to intervene abroad if it is in national interests neutralizing a potentially threatening power, or securing resources abroad for the home market).

But I would still support international cooperation and revenue sharing.

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