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Polls on politics, news, current affairs and history.

Do you support this system or similar systems to combat crime?

Yes, used as a permament measure
4
33%
Yes, used as a temporary measure
5
42%
No, oppose it on practicality
2
17%
No, oppose it on principle
1
8%
Other
No votes
0%
#13907902
I mentioned this system on another thread and now wish to communicate to a larger audience.

Say if you lived in a country with a high crime rate and normal methods of justice failed, would you consider using a harsh but effective system to combat crime? Do you support or oppose this justice system on principle or practicality?

TIME wrote:In 1993, Davao's San Pedro Cathedral was hit with three grenades during an evening Mass. Six parishioners were killed. The attackers were Muslim militants, the sort easily found in Davao, a time-honored haven for kidnappers, bandits, communist rebels and roaming private armies. Four of the attackers were quickly arrested. Just as quickly, Duterte relates, "They went missing." Disappeared. Dead. "Then," the mayor says flatly, "it got ugly." Further killings? "More like assassinations," he says. The targets — other militants — didn't receive the courtesy of arrest, much less a trial. Were they dispatched on his orders? "Oh no," he responds. "I don't believe in state-sponsored killing." A pause. "I can't say any more, but I taught them a lesson."

TIME wrote:On his watch, Davao's per capita crime rate has sunk to the nation's lowest. The local tourism board calls it "the most peaceful city in Southeast Asia." People once fled the place in fear; now they flee other trouble spots in the Philippines — for Davao.
#13907904
Used as a temporary measure

Of course, if it was needed as a permanent measure, then I'd support that too. People tend to ignore how much these sorts of animals terrorise and damage their victims, often for the rest of their lives. Their "rights" are not my concern. :)
#13907977
No, oppose practically.

I have no objection to the death penalty in the broadest sense, but I think that to ethically employ it has so many requirements that it's basically not worth it. I also don't see the point in copying the criminal justice system of a country with high crime rates, when we could more easily and ethically copy the criminal justice system of Norway, which is so effective it makes my eyes water at the thought of it, and makes my head hurt that people oppose it.
#13907985
What makes you think that Norway's criminal justice system is responsible for Norway's low crime rate?
#13907988
Because the alternative is racism that doesn't make any real sense because it's limited to a few countries, or general nutbaggery.

And the US and Norway once had similar criminal justice systems and similar crime rates, Norway went one way, the US went another way, and our respective crime rates should say enough. And before you ask, I also went back and found that the US and Norway have similar overall cost-per-prisoner, and their prisons cost a similar amount per-prisoner.

Edit: Oh, and the concept behind the Norwegian Criminal Justice System makes sense, as the American system teaches (based on the Psychological principles of Classical, Operant, and Social Conditioning) that force is an appropriate means of getting your way, and that authority figures cannot be trusted.
Last edited by Wolfman on 29 Feb 2012 16:26, edited 1 time in total.
#13907989
Yes, used as a temporary measure.

Publius wrote:I also don't see the point in copying the criminal justice system of a country with high crime rates, when we could more easily and ethically copy the criminal justice system of Norway, which is so effective it makes my eyes water at the thought of it, and makes my head hurt that people oppose it.

We will see how Norway's crime rates will be in a couple decades when it may very well be overrun by Mohamedans and Sub-Saharan Africans. I hope this won't be the issue.
#13908032
Yes, used as a permanent measure.

The system is effective, and should be implemented, with modifications appropriate to each country's situation, in countries with high crime rates and failed standard justice systems.
#13908050
Publius wrote:Because the alternative is racism that doesn't make any real sense because it's limited to a few countries, or general nutbaggery.

And the US and Norway once had similar criminal justice systems and similar crime rates, Norway went one way, the US went another way, and our respective crime rates should say enough.

I don't know about Norway specifically, but my research indicates that crime rates throughout the 20th century have been significantly higher in the US than in Western Europe, which was a source of amusement for early 20th century Europeans. A quick Google search yields the conclusion that murder rates were much lower in Sweden (0.6 per 100,000) than they were in the US (5.1 per 100,000) in 1950. Given the proximity between Swedish and Norwegian culture and policies, I would wager that Norway being much more criminal than Sweden at any given time is unlikely -- and thus that you're talking out of your butthole.

The "racist" answer further seems consistent with observation, seeing as 1) white crime stats are low in both the US and Western Europe, and 2) ethnic minorities are significantly more criminal than whites in both regions. Finally, the US tough on crime approach appears to be working, judging by the fact that crime rates have been consistently diminishing since 1991.
#13908070
Yes, used as a permament measure*

In the end, I believe the state should have the final say whether an act of violence is legitimate or not, and do so for the betterment of the society they serve. I don't believe they should have a monopoly on carrying out lawful violence as I believe laws should exist that support self defence, castle laws (to a degree) and neighbourhood watch/vigilantism. Measures must be taken and kept to keep locals groups from becoming corrupt fiefdoms and as well as ways to remove them of they do.


* perhaps toned down a bit.
#13908157
I don't know about Norway specifically, but my research indicates that crime rates throughout the 20th century have been significantly higher in the US than in Western Europe, which was a source of amusement for early 20th century Europeans.


The US and Norway had similar crime rates, and then they didn't. And Norway has (plus or minus) the lowest crime rates in the world.

A quick Google search yields the conclusion that murder rates were much lower in Sweden (0.6 per 100,000) than they were in the US (5.1 per 100,000) in 1950. Given the proximity between Swedish and Norwegian culture and policies, I would wager that Norway being much more criminal than Sweden at any given time is unlikely -- and thus that you're talking out of your butthole.


I was speaking of total number of people in prison, not specific crimes.

The "racist" answer further seems consistent with observation, seeing as 1) white crime stats are low in both the US and Western Europe, and 2) ethnic minorities are significantly more criminal than whites in both regions. Finally, the US tough on crime approach appears to be working, judging by the fact that crime rates have been consistently diminishing since 1991.


Norway is 86% Norwegian. The Netherlands is 80% Dutch and 5% other European. The Dutch are exporting their criminals to Norway for prison because Dutch Prison's are overflowing. So, in order for the racist theory to be correct, you'd have to tell me that the Dutch are a different and inferior race to the Norwegians.

There's still the minor issue of one of these theories making perfect sense from the perspective of a Behavioral Psychologist, and one of them relying on trash science.

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