[Godstud]

Doesn't matter the reason, the fact is the ratio is 77 to 1

It's a meaningless number, and irrelevant.

They have very strict rules for immigrating to New Zealand, and thus most people don't immigrate there. That doesn't mean, because of this, that it's a shit place to go. Japan allows almost 0 immigration, but that doesn't mean that it's not a great place to live. Your barometer is bullshit.

All in all, your argument is absurd, and based on the capitalist propaganda that you've sucked up and absorbed like a nice little conservative sponge.

China has a communist government that is geared towards a capitalist economy.

[stephen50right]

It's a meaningless number, and irrelevant.

They have very strict rules for immigrating to New Zealand, and thus most people don't immigrate there. That doesn't mean, because of this, that it's a shit place to go. Your argument is absurd, and based on the propaganda that you've sucked up and absorbed like a nice little conservative sponge.

Through personal and business meetings over the years, many thousands of people, I don't know a single one who even had a thought for a second to immigrate to China. I have known some who visited China for a vacation, and they found it very interesting, but they never considered living there.

Frankly, I was surprised at the 27.000 number, I thought it would be considerably lower than that.

I never stated that China was a shit place to go, the Chinese people are a great people, and they make great American citizens. However most Americans despise communism, and I would have to believe that taking away those who immigrated there for business reasons, most of the rest are comprised of far leftists who don't mind living under a repressive system such as communism.

[Godstud]

Anecdotal evidence is shit, in this regards. I have met many Chinese people who do not want to move to the USA.

They love their country, but sort of dislike their government. You can find these same type of people in every country in the world.

However most Americans despise communism

Most Americans despise communism because they are ignorant and uneducated. They don't really know much about it, except that it's BAD, because they've had it drilled into their heads since they were little kids.

Americans fear things they don't know, like socialism and communism. Ignorance has that effect.

[ingliz]

Actually, it does.

Taiwan

The Republic of China (ROC) is not the People's Republic of China (PRC).

Macau
A Portuguese colony before 20 December 1999.

Macau maintains its own legal system, public security force, monetary system, customs policy, and immigration policy, and will do until 2049.

Hong Kong
A British Dependent Territory before 1 July 1997.

The PRC tightly controls emigration of mainland Chinese to Hong Kong.

PRC

A People's Republic of China Permit for Proceeding to Hong Kong and Macao (Chinese: 中华人民共和国前往港澳通行证) or One-way Permit (Chinese: 单程证) is a document issued by the People's Republic of China allowing residents of mainland China to leave the mainland permanently to settle in Hong Kong or Macau.

The permit is specifically for the purpose of family reunion, not for general immigration - the waiting time for spouses is currently 4 years.

Actually...

Why are you counting immigrants from the ROC, Macau residents who emigrated before 20 December 1999, and Hong Kong residents who emigrated before 1 July 1997?


PS. I could also argue, why are you counting Macau residents who emigrated after 20 December 1999 as competence in such matters resides in Macau, not the PRC.

"Sovereignty connotes simply unlimited legal competence, that is, the power to determine legal rights and duties so far as it is concerned, and to fix the territorial limits within which it will not permit the legal rights and duties existing by virtue of another sovereignty, the power to delegate the exercise of sovereignty to the various organs of government, and the power to determine the powers and the liabilities of such governmental agencies... all individual states derive their competency from [their] sovereignty."

The Doctrine of Sovereignty under the United States Constitution

[stephen50right]

Anecdotal evidence is shit, in this regards. I have met many Chinese people who do not want to move to the USA.

They love their country, but sort of dislike their government. You can find these same type of people in every country in the world.

Most Americans despise communism because they are ignorant and uneducated. They don't really know much about it, except that it's BAD, because they've had it drilled into their heads since they were little kids.

Americans fear things they don't know, like socialism and communism. Ignorance has that effect.

<<< Americans fear things they don't know, like socialism and communism. >>>

Your remark is incorrect.

During a US presidential election, there are all sorts of political parties on the ballot, including those with the names socialist and communist in them. We have no fear at all of what you stated. If in the future, the majority of the electorate vote for socialism or communism, then it shall be so.

However during a Chinese presidential election, how many political parties other than the Communist Party do the Chinese people get to choose from?

[Godstud]

My remark is true. You've been programmed since birth to hate communism. Only when you start to think and question what you've been told, will you find that things like socialism are not the enemy.

FFS it's still in Air Force Regulations!

Air Force Instruction 1-1

3.4.2. Prohibitions on Wear of Uniform. Air Force members will not wear any uniform
combination or any uniform items in the following situations:

3.4.2.1. When attending a meeting of, or sponsored by, an organization, association,
movement, or group that: the Attorney General of the United States has named as
totalitarian, fascist, communist, or subversive; advocates or approves acts of force or
violence to deny others their rights under the United States Constitution; or seeks to
change the United States government by unconstitutional means.

[stephen50right]

My remark is true. You've been programmed since birth to hate communism. Only when you start to think and question what you've been told, will you find that things like socialism are not the enemy.

FFS it's still in Air Force Regulations!

Air Force Instruction 1-1

3.4.2. Prohibitions on Wear of Uniform. Air Force members will not wear any uniform
combination or any uniform items in the following situations:

3.4.2.1. When attending a meeting of, or sponsored by, an organization, association,
movement, or group that: the Attorney General of the United States has named as
totalitarian, fascist, communist, or subversive; advocates or approves acts of force or
violence to deny others their rights under the United States Constitution; or seeks to
change the United States government by unconstitutional means.

So you don't understand the difference between political freedom and military regulations?

[Godstud]

I was demonstrating that fear of communism still exists and most Americans are programmed from birth to hate it, even though they haven't a fucking clue what it is.

Most people don't give a rat's ass about political freedom if they're poor. USA has a nice plutocracy where the richest person wins.

US elections: no matter who you vote for, money always wins
Dollars play a decisive role in US politics. And more so since the supreme court allowed unlimited campaign contributions
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... money-wins

So I guess you can enjoy your illusion of political freedom, for that's all it really is.

[danholo]

I chose misconception since I don't think people are generally very knowledgeable.

I completely support opposition to Marxism.

However, being informed about your opinions is always important. Opposition because of false reasons could lead one to feel misled and garner mistrust for those who don't necessarily deserve it. This might be the reason American college students are so enamored with Marxism; it's a taboo in general society, considered as a 'devil'. Then when they learn about it, it's not as bad as it's made out to be so they turn against the system and become brainwashed SJW morons at worst.

[Suzzann]

It's only natural that American or Western European Democracies would dislike Communism; its tenets are in direct opposition with the internal framework of their societies. It's one thing to have opposing political parties such as Republicans and Democrats, but Communism is downright revolutionary, and many of its branches state that violent revolution is the best, if not the only way to achieve their ideal state. Tearing down the bourgeois, who hold most of the power in a representative democracy, would effectively cripple the government, so if Communism were to have the slightest chance at succeeding in a non-authoritarian form, it would have to be implemented before society completely collapses. Talk about a time crunch.

Besides, the Communist Manifesto could never be accepted by the rich and powerful, mostly because it basically blames the majority of society's problems on them. And the rich have a lot of control over public sentiment, so they would easily be able to shift public sentiment to take a stance against Communism, even if very few citizens had actually done any reading on the subject.

[neopagan]

Its getting harder to find communist regimes to dislike, and consequently there is far less anti-communist rhetoric in the USA than there was during the Cold War. It can be argued that China is no longer a communist country and that it has evolved into a capitalist country with a one party, authoritarian central government. Communism in reality, is a bit of a misnomer. Most of the so-called communist revolutions quickly became military dictatorships.

[Truth To Power]

Its getting harder to find communist regimes to dislike,

It has always been impossible to find communist regimes at all. It's getting harder to find socialist regimes pretending to be communist because they have failed.

It can be argued that China is no longer a communist country

It was never communist, and hasn't been socialist for nearly 40 years.

and that it has evolved into a capitalist country with a one party, authoritarian central government.

It's not capitalist because private ownership of land is banned. It is geoist, as HK has been for 160 years.

Communism in reality, is a bit of a misnomer. Most of the so-called communist revolutions quickly became military dictatorships.

Socialist dictatorships.

[neopagan]

Your pedantic response changes nothing, but if you think Chinese capitalists cannot own land, you need to visit Australia.

[RepubliConservative]

While Europeans may be silly enough to buy into the promise of communism, Americans know communism has a track record of death, destruction, and poverty.

To use an analogy, Europe is like the kids at school who start smoking because they think it'll make them cool, whereas, the U.S. is the smart kid who knows smoking is a disaster waiting to happen.

[AFAIK]

How do you explain a small impoverished country like Cuba having better healthcare and literacy metrics than the USA, which is the wealthiest and strongest country in the world @RepubliConservative.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

I think for one thing, Communism is flawed because of the tactics that "real" communists believe. By "real", I mean the people in history that have espoused Marxism and preached class struggle. Mao, Stalin, Trotsky, Che Guevara, Fudel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, all were military and political figures that were responsible for the deaths of a lot of people. A lot of their own people. It was a dark time in human history in general, one that featured disgusting violence from the whole human race, but many of these people did things to their own people that is revolting.

However I will say that the West will never be compared to in the things they did in the name of profits. I just think that capitalism works as a system if we could just get rid of the war and violence, and have a strong government to keep businesses in line and give power to labor. I do believe that labor should be enriched so that people have money for their needs and their wants. I also think we should try to redistribute the wealth and education to more people. I just don't think communism provides that as much as communists claim it does, because they always did terrible things to their political opponents and the former ruling class.

Furthermore I think Americans have benefited greatly from capitalism, so it's hard for me to want to let go of a system that benefits me.

[Potemkin]

I think for one thing, Communism is flawed because of the tactics that "real" communists believe. By "real", I mean the people in history that have espoused Marxism and preached class struggle. Mao, Stalin, Trotsky, Che Guevara, Fudel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, all were military and political figures that were responsible for the deaths of a lot of people. A lot of their own people. It was a dark time in human history in general, one that featured disgusting violence from the whole human race, but many of these people did things to their own people that is revolting.

However I will say that the West will never be compared to in the things they did in the name of profits. I just think that capitalism works as a system if we could just get rid of the war and violence, and have a strong government to keep businesses in line and give power to labor. I do believe that labor should be enriched so that people have money for their needs and their wants. I also think we should try to redistribute the wealth and education to more people. I just don't think communism provides that as much as communists claim it does, because they always did terrible things to their political opponents and the former ruling class.

"Why can't we all just... get along?"

Furthermore I think Americans have benefited greatly from capitalism, so it's hard for me to want to let go of a system that benefits me.

The ruling class also have the same attitude, LV (and why wouldn't they?). This, of course, is precisely why they will never permit what you describe above as the only way to "make capitalism work as a system". It would no longer be working for them. And this, of course, is why the only way to make capitalism work for the vast majority of the human race is to do what Mao, Stalin, Trotsky, Che Guevara, Fudel Castro, Ho Chi Minh and Lenin all did.

[AFAIK]

So LV dislikes communism for its high death toll whilst acknowledging that capitalism's was higher?

As I asked earlier in the thread- how much of communism's death toll was due to the inherent bloodlust of communists and how much was a result of being attacked by fascists and imperialists over and over and over again?

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

I mean there is history and there is now. I don't want to repeat the mistakes of history, and I think communism was a mistake. I also think that wars are a mistake.

The ruling class also have the same attitude, LV (and why wouldn't they?). This, of course, is precisely why they will never permit what you describe above as the only way to "make capitalism work as a system". It would no longer be working for them. And this, of course, is why the only way to make capitalism work for the vast majority of the human race is to do what Mao, Stalin, Trotsky, Che Guevara, Fudel Castro, Ho Chi Minh and Lenin all did.

You act like the ruling class is one homogenous entity. People have had different attitudes about war in different time periods. Lets not also forget that war is built into the communist ideology. Violent revolution is the foundation of most communist regimes.

[Decky]

The ruling class have the same economic interests, no matter their differences in individual beliefs they are compelled to act in exactly the same way if they want to remain part of the ruling class.