[Hong Wu]

The Overton window has moved to the right not the left, the last left wing government in the UK was in 1979, the US has never had one and the Soviet Union has collapsed and was replaced with direct rule by millionaire oligarchs (pretty much the most right wing ubercapitalist form of government imaginable). The middle east has went from nice secular dictatorships to being over run by theocracies, the right has won al over the globe.

You people live so far far outside of reality it honestly amazes me.

To be fair, I think it's likely that the actual overton window has moved to the right in some ways, but the terminology or the "artificial overton window" if you know what I mean, has definitely moved to the left as the MSM and colleges collude to make leftist things seem normal.

[Decky]

What are you on about, it has evidently moved to the right, you people have won. The only reason immigration is so high is the victory of free market capitalism (free movement of goods and labour being the main goals of the capitalists). You right wingers are the cause of everything you claim to stand against.

As for your nonsense about the media. The mainstream media does not collude to make leftist things seems normal, the media is owned by millionaires, it does not collude to make seizing the wealth of millionaires normal, it does not collude to make mass nationalisations seem normal, it does not collude to make toppling the remaining royal families seem normal. The media worships the right like they were gods.

[fuser]

Still no libertarians. PoFo is not the same place without them. It makes me want to apply for the village idiot post. Ok I am a libertarian now, a great sacrifice for PoFo.

Damn you statists.

[mikema63]

How do you feel about a modest tax on people with three or more yachts?

[SolarCross]

Regarding @Decky and @Hong Wu's difference in opinion on which way the overton window went you are both right and wrong at the same time and this is why:

First of all Overton stylised his window to go UP and DOWN not LEFT and RIGHT as he explicitly did not want his concept to get tangled up in the tangled nonsense that is the Left-Right political spectrum.

What happened since the fall of the soviet union was the final bleed out of the socialist ideology as a political economic force. Since it remains even today that the USSR and its state religion are perceived widely as the leftiest of the left wing it follows that with its collapse and withdrawal of influence the (not) Overton window has moved to the right since then, just as Decky says.

Hong Wu however is looking at this period in history with Christian eyes and seeing the collapse and final bleed out of the influence of Christian culture in the west (however Christianity is enjoying a modest revival in some parts of the world notably in the former USSR) and since he has had innumerable self-identifying leftists call him "right wing" because of his Christianity so he perceives the (not) overton window moving to the left...

It might be right to say that Hong Wu sees the fall of Christianity with the same kind of sad nostalgia as Decky feels with the passing of the USSR.

The actual overton window moves up and down on various issues:

- The west's increasing tolerance of homosexuality is the overton window moving up on that issue alone. With an Islamic push back that might change direction in the west.

- The west's increasing concern over terrorism has the overton window moving down on the issue of security vs liberty.

[Heisenberg]

How do you feel about a modest tax on people with three or more yachts?

Easy there, Mike Il-Sung.

[MadMonk]

'with Christian eyes'

Thank you for perfectly summon up why I find Hong Wu to be insane (I find everyone insane, everyone just needs their special brand of insanity ).

[fuser]

I think Heisenberg could partner with me in our struggle against you filthy statists.

Also taxes? Why would any reasonable person support robbery? It beats me.

[AFAIK]

The sea should be partitioned and sold off to private interests who would then have an incentive to improve the service by providing lighthouses, coastguards and other services. Clearly the gov't is incapable of producing this infrastructure and rent-seeking monopolies are the only way to prevent the tragedy of the commons.

[The Immortal Goon]

but then modern Tories blatantly rip things off of Labour and both the modern left and right took things from both Fascism and Communism that actually worked, they just didn't call it such, which is part of why those ideologies aren't interesting people anymore.

I would love to see examples of what parts of communism went politically mainstream.

The west's increasing tolerance of homosexuality is the overton window moving up on that issue alone. With an Islamic push back that might change direction in the west.

The needle moving on homosexuality in the West is a result of Christians and giant corporations.

Though it is very possible the former was a result of the latter, it's difficult to call this some kind of crazy left wing conspiracy started when Wal-Mart thought it could make some extra money by breaking into one last market.

This reminds me a bit of Affirmitive Action, a policy promoted by those left wing hippies in the military and Fortune 500 companies.

Why do these rightwing sources support gay rights and affirmitive action? Part of it comes down to the right's acceptance of postmodernism (though in a less crazy way than their current acceptance).

Let us presume that you want to do research into the Mau Mau Uprising. Where would you look?

In the old days you'd look at British sources. The end.

The Postmodernist aspect would (correctly) encourage one to look into what the Kenyans did through both official interview and less official things like the types of folklore that became popular at the time among children.

This same logic applies to the military, and minorities and homosexuals provide another source for the military to use in whatever operations it is engaging in besides "official sources." Having black faces walking around in an African engagement, and being able to rely on civilians volunteering from gays and straights both makes the military stronger--and they want the option to be able to pull what they want instead of tripping over what they're supposed to do.

The same thing for big corporations. Their objective is to sell things, and that included selling to markets that are under represented. Having sources of information and talent that is specialized in selling to gay areas, black areas, Asian areas, etc, makes them more effective at their work. Just like a historian using Kenyan sources to learn about the Mau Mau rebellion is more effective than one that only looks at British sources.

Though there are those in the left that champion an end to racism and homosexual liberation, the reason that these things exist on the left is mostly because rightwing sources like corporations and the military found them effective.

There is no conspiracy. There is capital.

[SolarCross]

The needle moving on homosexuality in the West is a result of Christians and giant corporations.

Though it is very possible the former was a result of the latter, it's difficult to call this some kind of crazy left wing conspiracy started when Wal-Mart thought it could make some extra money by breaking into one last market.

You are putting the horse before the cart. The attitudes of Christians and corporations have moved because everyone else and the establishment moved and they all moved because Christianity lost steam as the primary determiner of that which is moral in favour of older pagan attitudes.

The "left" had nothing much to do with it I think. Well some may have jumped on some band wagons but then who doesn't?

[The Immortal Goon]

You are putting the horse before the cart. The attitudes of Christians and corporations have moved because everyone else and the establishment moved and they all moved because Christianity lost steam as the primary determiner of that which is moral in favour of older pagan attitudes.

The "left" had nothing much to do with it I think. Well some may have jumped on some band wagons but then who doesn't?

We then both agree that the left had nothing really to do with it.

But your contention that, "they all moved because Christianity lost steam as the primary determiner of that which is moral in favour of older pagan attitudes," could use a source. I don't see how the pagans have that much power, or how this would have more of an affect on capitalist society than capitalism. This loss of Christian value that you're underlining does exist, but this is because of capitalism.

The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.

The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his “natural superiors”, and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous “cash payment”. It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation.

[SolarCross]

But your contention that, "they all moved because Christianity lost steam as the primary determiner of that which is moral in favour of older pagan attitudes," could use a source. I don't see how the pagans have that much power, or how this would have more of an affect on capitalist society than capitalism. This loss of Christian value that you're underlining does exist, but this is because of capitalism.

The source is my own opinion based on my interpretation of history, or to be more generous to myself it is my own hypothesis. Any credible historian will tell you that Christianity took a huge credibility hit when the nascent cult of science comprehensively destroyed the Church's favoured cosmology which was a composite sourced from Genesis and some old pagan greeks like Aristotle and Ptolomy.

Prior to Christianity, the default attitude to homosexuality was pretty tolerant in Europe, in the north you might be mocked for it, while in the south it was considered pretty much normal, either way it was nothing that might be deemed criminal or sinful. Christianity is a bit of composite of pagan hellenism and judaism but on the issue of sodomy the Christians have been fairly consistently leaning towards the judaic attitude to homosexuality. The Christians successfully changed the overton window in europe from more free to less free on homosexuality and it was Christians moral influence that kept it there.

With Galileo and finally Darwin, the cosmology of Christianity was increasingly in doubt and finally pretty much in tatters. With a broken cosmology, it is natural that the moral understanding that went with it under the banner of Christianity would also fall into doubt and lose influence.

Science broke Christianity, but while it has everything to say on cosmology it has nothing much to say on morality.. so naturally older pagan attitudes reassert themselves in the vacuum.

[Hong Wu]

Anti-homosexual values were a lot broader than just Christianity, or the Abrahamic religions, though. I think the homosexuality issue is a little more complicated than you're making it out to be.

[The Immortal Goon]

Ugh, and this is where the postmodernism went wrong, especially now that the right kneels to its worst excesses.

Your source?

The source is my own opinion based on my interpretation of history, or to be more generous to myself it is my own hypothesis.

Oh, your precious feelings! Well, who am I to argue facts with how you feel on a given day!

Wait, Hong Wu--who has of yet to provide any sources for how communism was adopted by the body politic in some way--also disagrees with your feelings because of his sourceless feelings. Perhaps I should take my "facts" out of here so ye can have a safe place to explore your emotions?

Your feelings are irrelevant.

[Pants-of-dog]

As a leftist who is also supportive of equal rights for LGBTQetc. people, I would like to believe that leftists are responsible for increased social acceptance of LGBTQetc. people. But my feelings are not relevant.

I think that if there were anything that compelled Christians and capital to accept gay rights, it was the actions of LGBTQetc. people themselves, organising and agitating. Some leftists may have played a supporting role, but it may be more accurate to say that some people played a supporting role and also happened to be leftist.

[Lexington]

Libertarian: No votes

Man...there was a time where you couldn't go five feet on an internet forum without getting RON PAUL 2012 spammed at you from ten directions.

[fuser]

This is what I am saying Lex and hence for PoFo I am a libertarian now, care to join and fight the good fight against them dirty statists.

[MememyselfandIJK]

Also communists are in first place.

What was all the complaining I heard about the alt-right invading pofo?/s

[Lexington]

Apparently the right wingers are just disproportionately loud.

PoFo has always had lots of commies.

Also there are apparently quite a few left-liberals (I put myself in that category) we're apparently just disproportionately quiet.