[Victoribus Spolia]

Nope, not unless you can make a school of moral thought out of pragmatism and game theory.

No doubt you could, but that sounds rather tedious in deciding matters like who should take care of your mum when she gets old. You would only be a little better off than relativism anyway. I tend to think Traditionalists should seek out a dogma to justify their ethical decisions; otherwise, you are more-or-less lost in the same sort of post-modern relativism that has led the left into the moral chaos it now finds itself.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

However go too far into the opposite direction and you are more-or-less lost in the same limited and close-minded dogmatism that shrouds the modern right and allows it to go so far into the depths of tribal politics that it willing to condone anything that supports it's "tribe".

@Victoribus Spolia

To answer your question, you! You're more valuable than all of them!

[Victoribus Spolia]

However go too far into the opposite direction and you are more-or-less lost in the same limited and close-minded dogmatism that shrouds the modern right and allows it to go so far into the depths of tribal politics that it willing to condone anything that supports it's "tribe".

Technically, I think that @SolarCross is already a tribalist.

To answer your question, you! You're more valuable than all of them!

This almost sounds like a romantic proposition.

[Oxymandias]

@Victoribus Spolia

Well I certainly think it is an unhealthy way to look at the world and that @SolarCross shouldn't think in such a narrow-minded perspective. Think in tribal terms makes you forget the bigger picture and, as a side effect, those that see the bigger picture are able to easily manipulate those that cannot. And the biggest issue with tribalism in my opinion, is that it never works. You will never accomplish anything in a tribal environment due to thinking in such a narrow way and so tribal environments will never progress.

I was going to say "maybe it is " but I didn't want to get into pretend flirting with some random dude on the internet not because it wouldn't be hilarious and fun but because I'm too lazy to think of good funny bad flirting jokes.

[Godstud]

Other

An animal does not have the rights of a human, and so even a human fetus has more rights than an animal. Animals will never have the same rights as humans.

Also, a fetus is still not actually a baby, until it is developed enough to be considered one. The rights of the human being will therefore trump any claim to that end. Thus the mother's life is more important than the potential baby, and the mother's choice should also be far more important than that of a potential human(of which you can consider a sperm if you are silly enough to do so).

So Animal life<Fetal life< Human life

[Victoribus Spolia]

Well I certainly think it is an unhealthy way to look at the world and that @SolarCross shouldn't think in such a narrow-minded perspective. Think in tribal terms makes you forget the bigger picture and, as a side effect, those that see the bigger picture are able to easily manipulate those that cannot. And the biggest issue with tribalism in my opinion, is that it never works. You will never accomplish anything in a tribal environment due to thinking in such a narrow way and so tribal environments will never progress.

Well, i'm not against tribalism per se, just unprincipled tribalism. Unprincipled tribalism leads to "desperate-measures" type pragmatic solutions to solve crisis and promotes eugenic insanity to the point of extreme purity laws and "final-solutions." Do I believe top priority ought to be given to one's ethno-religious national identity, from a political perspective? Absolutely. Do I believe the measures by which such policies are pursued should be based on what is allegedly "scientific" "pragmatic" or purely in the "collective interest" without consideration of higher and universally-binding moral principles: Absolutely Not.

I was going to say "maybe it is " but I didn't want to get into pretend flirting with some random dude on the internet not because it wouldn't be hilarious and fun but because I'm too lazy to think of good funny bad flirting jokes.

Just admit it, you have trouble thinking clearly when I come to mind. I have that affect on people. Its cool, I won't judge. What happens on PoFo, stays on PoFo

[SolarCross]

Well, i'm not against tribalism per se, just unprincipled tribalism. Unprincipled tribalism leads to "desperate-measures" type pragmatic solutions to solve crisis and promotes eugenic insanity to the point of extreme purity laws and "final-solutions." Do I believe top priority ought to be given to one's ethno-religious national identity, from a political perspective? Absolutely. Do I believe the measures by which such policies are pursued should be based on what is allegedly "scientific" "pragmatic" or purely in the "collective interest" without consideration of higher and universally-binding moral principles: Absolutely Not.

Tribalism is inevitable for any social animal, only hermits and extreme individualists can have a chance of escaping that yoke. Most people fall naturally into some level of ethno-nationalism (my clan / my city / my nation / my race / my species) others fall into ideological tribes (islam vs kafir, jews vs goy, christians vs heathens, communists vs capitalists, liberals vs conservatives etc) and a good many do both (yourself?) at the same time.

Personally I never really fell into any kind of ideological tribe though I have fairly speciously flirted with anarcho-communism (very embarrassing to admit now, lol) and libertarianism in the past, oh the folly of youth!

On the other hand I am a fairly weak ethno-tribalist, I guess if pushed I could be a patriotic brit but I don't expend a lot of time, thought or energy on it by default. I tend to be a bit of a hermit / extreme individualist without really trying to be that, a consequence of my highly mobile formative years I guess.

In the absence of an ideological tribe there can hardly be anything else to guide my ethics than pragmatism / game theory. I don't think the consequences of relying on pragmatism for ethical concerns need be dystopian, because compassion & enlightened self-interest are factors too and such things neither need, nor come from ideology.

[Victoribus Spolia]

@SolarCross,

You are definitely an intriguing character and I think you are reasonable, in light of this, I have a couple of personal questions for you since you are a Brit and are not a completely insane leftist. I am asking these questions because in a few years I will need to do (per education requirements) work for my Ph.D in England and am thinking of living overseas for my last year of my Ph.D., and would like to have a network of friends in the country that could help get a place to stay for my family, take me to good pubs, etc.

1. Are you still living in the UK?

2. How old are you and do you have a family?

3. Do you enjoy drinking profuse amounts of Beer?

4. Did you see my family pics on PoFo pics? Is it safe, and potentially affordable (not talking air-line tickets, I know that will be expensive for my ever-expanding brood), for my family to come and live for a year? I will have 8-9 kids by time I am ready to come over.

Thanks.

@Oxymandias,

I am still waiting for you to reply on "The American Shah of Persia" Thread I started. FYI.

[SolarCross]

@SolarCross,

You are definitely an intriguing character and I think you are reasonable, in light of this, I have a couple of personal questions for you since you are a Brit and are not a completely insane leftist. I am asking these questions because in a few years I will need to do (per education requirements) work for my Ph.D in England and am thinking of living overseas for my last year of my Ph.D., and would like to have a network of friends in the country that could help get a place to stay for my family, take me to good pubs, etc.

1. Are you still living in the UK?

2. How old are you and do you have a family?

3. Do you enjoy drinking profuse amounts of Beer?

4. Did you see my family pics on PoFo pics? Is it safe, and potentially affordable (not talking air-line tickets, I know that will be expensive for my ever-expanding brood), for my family to come and live for a year? I will have 8-9 kids by time I am ready to come over.

Thanks.

Ok that sounds like fun. So:

1. Yes, but I am in a really rural part of a really rural county far from the dense urban hot-spots which boast universities and the like. Of course rural is relative term and compared to the US I guess nowhere in the UK is really rural because of the higher population density.

2. I'll admit to being nearly mid-forties, married to an Iranian lady (she will have her naturalisation ceremony today assuming we can get there through the snow), together we have one son who is beginning his teenage years.

3. I'm an off and on again drinker. Since I quit smoking a year ago I am mostly on rather than off. Lately I mostly drink spirits and wine. If I must do beer I prefer black Irish stout like Guinness.



4. Safe almost anywhere, though some parts of some cities can be a bit rough (multi-culturalism - muslim pedo rape gangs, street beheading and suicide bombers, you know the usual stuff).
Food is pretty cheap in the UK but accommodation is fairly expensive due to the crazy real estate bubble that has been building for the past decades. It could pop anytime though. There isn't any actual significant shortage of housing in the UK it is just a speculative bubble. Travel can be expensive due to high fuel taxes. I guess you could get your healthcare for free courtesy of the NHS. Booze from pubs and eating out is bit expensive, taxes again. Food is tax free unless you buy it from a restaurant or similar establishment in which case it gets hit with the UK's grossly expensive VAT (a kind of sales tax) at 20%. Regular shopping is also fairly expensive due to the VAT, though you could possibly claim some of that back when you return to the US). Tobacco is especially punitively taxed, expect to pay around £8 (circa $12) for a pack of 20 cigarettes (and there are rumours that new taxes could double that cost again).

Brexit tanked the pound a bit so at least the exchange rate should work out well for you.

[Victoribus Spolia]

1. Yes, but I am in a really rural part of a really rural county far from the dense urban hot-spots which boast universities and the like. Of course rural is relative term and compared to the US I guess nowhere in the UK is really rural because of the higher population density.

I myself grew up on 100+ acres of land, 42 of which were owned by my father and my wife grew up on a 500 acre farm herself. We prefer rural, but have lived in the city too, so how available are places to rent in rural areas, like single homes?Hell, what are the chances that somebody would let me remodel their barn into a cottage for my family lol? I'm resourceful like that. I would prefer rural, most of my educational requirements would keep me home anyway, its more about oral dissertations, etc that I would have to be on campus on a rare occasion.

2. I'll admit to being nearly mid-forties, married to an Iranian lady (she will have her naturalisation ceremony today assuming we can get there through the snow), together we have one son who is beginning his teenage years.

Iranian chicks are hot, so good for you. I'm looking forward to my boys becoming teens. (not so much my girls.)

3. I'm an off and on again drinker. Since I quit smoking a year ago I am mostly on rather than off. Lately I mostly drink spirits and wine. If I must do beer I prefer black Irish stout like Guinness.

Fortunately, that is my favorite beer and if I come into town, we'll need to get you "on-again" with the beer drinking....I'm a pretty boisterous, life-of-the-party type, so i'll probably end up buying the rounds for you and whoever is with us, get us yelled at for politically incorrect topics being spoken about in public, and end up leaving with more friends or none at all.

Travel can be expensive due to high fuel taxes. I guess you could get your healthcare for free courtesy of the NHS. Booze from pubs and eating out is bit expensive, taxes again. Food is tax free unless you buy it from a restaurant or similar establishment in which case it gets hit with the UK's grossly expensive VAT (a kind of sales tax) at 20%. Regular shopping is also fairly expensive due to the VAT, though you could possibly claim some of that back when you return to the US). Tobacco is especially punitively taxed, expect to pay around £8 (circa $12) for a pack of 20 cigarettes (and there are rumours that new taxes could double that cost again).

I would likely be a homebody most of the time, securing a residence to rent is more of my concern, but even if someone could shack me up for a couple months so I could make small barn or other utility structure into a livable space, that would be great. Of course, compared to the UK, the U.S. is probably like the wild, wild, west on building regulations.

Otherwise, I will budget my beer and pipe tobacco so as not to conflict with groceries....Do brits do any canning and preserving of garden products, can they keep chickens? or is that all illegal too? lol. Also, if you want to travel to an urban area, do you take a train or drive by car?

[SolarCross]

I myself grew up on 100+ acres of land, 42 of which were owned by my father and my wife grew up on a 500 acre farm herself. We prefer rural, but have lived in the city too, so how available are places to rent in rural areas, like single homes?Hell, what are the chances that somebody would let me remodel their barn into a cottage for my family lol? I'm resourceful like that. I would prefer rural, most of my educational requirements would keep me home anyway, its more about oral dissertations, etc that I would have to be on campus on a rare occasion.

Barn conversions are a very popular home development project but you still have to physically mud-wrestle the planning gargoyles for years and years and years before you can get official permission to build. If you are making anything residential expect pleasing the bureaucrats to take far longer than the build time even if you drop them a bribe.

Renting availability is there but rental prices tend to be dragged up by housing benefit and the real estate bubble, there is nothing cheap about accommodations in the UK even in rural areas and the more rooms you need the worse it gets unless you are citizen and also eligible for a state subsidy by being too feckless and lazy to work for a living or a foreign enemy of the state in which case your accommodations can be free courtesy of the tax payer. I pay £640 ($900?) per month for a 3 bed bungalow in the middle of nowhere and consider myself lucky. How many rooms would you need?

Iranian chicks are hot, so good for you. I'm looking forward to my boys becoming teens. (not so much my girls.)

She is a cutie and very loyal, the latter virtue being almost totally absent amongst British ladies since the swinging sixties. I am lucky indeed. She is officially a British citizen as of today so many congrats to her.

Fortunately, that is my favorite beer and if I come into town, we'll need to get you "on-again" with the beer drinking....I'm a pretty boisterous, life-of-the-party type, so i'll probably end up buying the rounds for you and whoever is with us, get us yelled at for politically incorrect topics being spoken about in public, and end up leaving with more friends or none at all.

Sounds fun, I haven't gone out partying in a donkey's age so that will be a change of pace.

Do brits do any canning and preserving of garden products, can they keep chickens? or is that all illegal too? lol. Also, if you want to travel to an urban area, do you take a train or drive by car?

Yes, all that is fine. I guess if you are producing food on a commercial scale for commercial distribution then the regs are copious, complicated and onerous but small scale artisan production is basically unregulated or at least unenforced. In the sticks you can often find people selling eggs and jam out of their home for example.

I drive everywhere.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Barn conversions are a very popular home development project but you still have to physically mud-wrestle the planning gargoyles for years and years and years before you can get official permission to build.

Even on your own property? Thats absurd. I asked permission to build a deck, got approved the same week, and paid like $50.00, three inspections over six months when he had time to stop by. I built my shed without asking anyone and completely remodeled by house without permission. My old man built his garage/barn, shed, and deck without any permission whatsoever. lol. That is a big change (well there goes that idea of showing up before the family and making a place in 3 months).

I pay £640 ($900?) per month for a 3 bed bungalow in the middle of nowhere and consider myself lucky. How many rooms would you need?

Well, for one year I could make a three bedroom work, even with 8 kids, My wife and children have never used more than three bedrooms for ourselves since I have been married and I have five kids now. 4 Bedrooms would be better, but the $900.00/month is something I could save up for easily in advance. Does that include utilities (electric, water, etc.)?

She is a cutie and very loyal, the latter virtue being almost totally absent amongst British ladies since the swinging sixties. I am lucky indeed. She is officially a British citizen as of today so many congrats to her

Yes, Congrats. That is exciting. So is she a muslim or non-religious? Sorry for prodding, just curious...

Sounds fun, I haven't gone out partying in a donkey's age so that will be a change of pace.

Indeed, I may be coming out next year for my 10 year anniversary (also to scope things out a bit), just my wife and I, got any spare rooms?

but small scale artisan production is basically unregulated or at least unenforced. In the sticks you can often find people selling eggs and jam out of their home for example.

Oh good, That is something my wife and I find essential and almost therapeutic, how about hunting? I sometimes get 50% of my yearly meat from hunting.

I drive everywhere.

Hmmm, good to know. Can you buy any shitty junk cars for cheap over there, so I don't have to spend a mint on a vehicle? I doubt you can rent a car for a whole year....lol

[SolarCross]

Even on your own property? Thats absurd. I asked permission to build a deck, got approved the same week, and paid like $50.00, three inspections over six months when he had time to stop by. I built my shed without asking anyone and completely remodeled by house without permission. My old man built his garage/barn, shed, and deck without any permission whatsoever. lol. That is a big change (well there goes that idea of showing up before the family and making a place in 3 months).

You're okay to put up sheds without permission also barns, it is just where the structure is to house people that things get bogged down in glacial bureaucratic procedures. If you are a handy sort you might consider converting an old double decker bus instead, though siting it will potentially cause issues with the bureaucrats. Another option might to be exploit an agricultural loop hole that allows for dwellings to be put up without proper permission providing it is necessary for an agricultural operation and it is taken down before selling the property or when agricultural project ends. So you could buy or rent some scrap of land, get some sheep, chickens or whatever then put up some caravans to live in. It can't be too small a project though as it has to turnover enough to pay someone a £10,000 per year salary in order to qualify. I guess I wouldn't bother myself, it will be easier and probably less expensive to just rent somewhere.

Well, for one year I could make a three bedroom work, even with 8 kids, My wife and children have never used more than three bedrooms for ourselves since I have been married and I have five kids now. 4 Bedrooms would be better, but the $900.00/month is something I could save up for easily in advance. Does that include utilities (electric, water, etc.)?

Just rent and water. In addition to utilities etc you will also have to pay a local tax that goes to the county council to pay for all kinds of stupid shit, I pay around £150 per month for that, others on more valuable properties will pay more, potentially a lot more.

Yes, Congrats. That is exciting. So is she a muslim or non-religious? Sorry for prodding, just curious...

I am not sure it is safe to answer that, you know how psycho-crazy muslims can be. Perhaps we'll talk about that in a less public forum.

Indeed, I may be coming out next year for my 10 year anniversary (also to scope things out a bit), just my wife and I, got any spare rooms?

Sorry no, our spare room is stacked to the ceiling with stock for my online shop.

Oh good, That is something my wife and I find essential and almost therapeutic, how about hunting? I sometimes get 50% of my yearly meat from hunting.

People shoot game birds, pheasants and the like, recreationally and for their meat. You'll never get licence to own a gun though, the procedures for that are more onerous than getting planning permission for a house but there are those who run game shooting businesses that you could go on, you could rent one of their guns for the day.

Yes, the UK has a lot of people rich enough to buy a brand new car every year or so, consequently the second hand car market is vast and very inexpensive. £2000 will buy a very decent second hand car and you can certainly get them for much less. I guess with 9 kids you'll need a very big vehicle indeed. I expect you could rent a car for a whole year but it would be much cheaper to buy and then resell.

[Oxymandias]

@Victoribus Spolia

That seems very interesting. Your ideas surprisingly seem to remind me of the societies of tribal Bedouin Arabs of the 9th century. You know there's a famous Bedouin saying that I think you may find particularly interesting. It goes something like this:

"I am against my brother, my brother and I are against my cousin, my cousin and I are against the stranger"

It signifies a particular concept in Bedouin society that may be appealing to you known as "the hierarchy of loyalties". Due to the nomadic nature of Bedouins and the chaotic nature of nomadic life it is impossible to know who to trust and who to side with so a sort of "hierarchy of loyalties" was produced.

This hierarchy of loyalties is organized as follows:

1. male kinship/i.e. the nuclear family

2. lineage/i.e. entire family

3. local community

4. wider community

5. entire genetic/linguistic/religious group

Just thought you would be interested.

Yes, it's coming but it is taking way to long. I'm thinking of making it it's own blog post since it's that long. It encompasses not just my thoughts on your post, but my thoughts on Iran, my ideas for your colonial government, and my thoughts on politics in general. It requires me to formulate my thoughts in a manner that I was unable to do so before. So of course it needs time.

BTW, hunting is a lost art. I do think that conserving wildlife is important (there's no game if there's nothing to hunt ergo if there's nothing interesting to hunt. Honestly who wouldn't have wanted to hunt a Dodo bird?) but I think going to far into the opposite direction is just as bad. Hunters aren't the ones who are causing the issues here, outside interference with wildlife from large unaccountable corporations destroying valuable public land is causing the issues.

All hunters do is just go to areas with a lot of game to hunt and often these places are already overpopulated with animals so there's no reason to not hunt. Then people forget that correlation is not causation and blame the extinction of animals on hunters. But when you begin to think about why animals would flock to such small areas away from their natural habitats, you realize that hunters are not causing extinction but that these corporations and large scale government projects are causing them.

[ingliz]

You'll never get licence to own a gun though

If you are talking about handguns, that's true. But laws on owning shotguns are more relaxed. You could get a shotgun license for shooting vermin. The only wrinkle is they must be registered with the local police, and they can take as long as they like to consider the mental health of an applicant.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I guess I wouldn't bother myself, it will be easier and probably less expensive to just rent somewhere.

Yeah, sounds like it.

Just rent and water. In addition to utilities etc you will also have to pay a local tax that goes to the county council to pay for all kinds of stupid shit, I pay around £150 per month for that, others on more valuable properties will pay more, potentially a lot more.

I figure that I could probably make a go of it for between $2,000-$2500.00 a month. I would save for it ahead of time and may be starting rental properties in the future and just have the monthly rent money wired to me by the family member I have managing the properties while i'm overseas. My goal is to live in one country overseas for a year and to visit every continent except Antarctica before I'm 40.

I am not sure it is safe to answer that, you know how psycho-crazy muslims can be. Perhaps we'll talk about that in a less public forum.

Sorry no, our spare room is stacked to the ceiling with stock for my online shop.

Damn. Guess i'll have to contact someone with Britain First

People shoot game birds, pheasants and the like, recreationally and for their meat. You'll never get licence to own a gun though, the procedures for that are more onerous than getting planning permission for a house but there are those who run game shooting businesses that you could go on, you could rent one of their guns for the day.

I wonder if I could transfer some of my hunting rifles over, I have heard of people doing that in Japan. I will look into that.

£2000 will buy a very decent second hand car and you can certainly get them for much less. I guess with 9 kids you'll need a very big vehicle indeed.

Good, sounds like I have options then. Much more doable than I had realized.

Thanks for the Info.

@Oxymandias,

I tend to think i'm a bit more principled than those principles as outlined by the Bedouin, but I do respect much of it.
I am looking forward to your response to my post, no matter where you make it. Keep me informed.

[Oxymandias]

@Victoribus Spolia

Well what are your principled principles my good fellow?

[Victoribus Spolia]

Well what are your principled principles my good fellow?

I was actually planning on writing this sometime in a thread entitled: "Pragmatism versus Principle in Conservative Politics;" Wherein, I intend to discuss the relationship of pragmatism in the Far-Right (alt.right, alt.light, fascism, etc), and American Libertarian types (tea-party, constitutionalists, paleo-cons, etc).,

You see, Far-Right politics is often overwhelmed with pragmatism as a philosophy (just see SolarCross's views as stated above). Rarely are these individuals religious, and if they are, they tend towards monarchism. The reason is because for many of these Far-Right groups, tradition, ethnicity, and a strong-man become the source of a tangible authority amidst the irreligious chaos created in a post-Christian society. For such people, constitutions don't matter, they are unhelpful and get in the way as do legislatures. Such members of the Far-Right advocate for efficient authority vested in a ruler, for the advancement and survival of the race and/or people, its traditions, etc. These groups tend to elevate race or culture above religion, moral codes, etc., race or culture is the ultimate goal and standard. This seems to me, to be a poor solution to nihilism, it leads to rudderless amoralism and often to very anti-traditional results.

At the same time, in contrast to pragmatic conservatives, you have principled conservatives, such refuse to vote or support candidates that can win, because of personal moral qualms, some are purists on the constitution and cannot support traditionalism as an enshrined political doctrine (even if they think it is somehow necessary at the personal level for a moral society)., etc.

The problem with both of these groups is as follows: The far-right fail to see the need for principles or that they have some that they need to enshrine, and the purists fail to see civilizational survival as itself a principle or that if it is not in their constitution then it must be added.

The Bedouin you mention seem much like the Far-Right I mention above, they are pragmatists who have loyalty to patriarch, blood, and family over principles most of the time. I don't advocate for that, but for a system where such loyalties are part of the code of morals to be upheld and harmonized with the rest, but all subsumed under an unquestionable first loyalty to the True Faith. The survival, preservation, and growth of one's people depends fully on God and following His commands, and thus, to put race and ethnicity ahead of religion, without qualification, is absurd in my opinion, without religion the preservation of such cannot be guaranteed. Survival is a principle dependent on a commitment to the Faith-Principle. Everything, including the divinely vested authority of the king or the family patriarch, originates from this, as does a clear-cut inscripturated system of morals and principles that , if followed, can guarantee such a survival for a people.

[Oxymandias]

@Victoribus Spolia

Then what are your thoughts on Medieval Arab Islamic Culture which was supposed to be the combination of pragmatism and principle that you express here?

[Victoribus Spolia]

Then what are your thoughts on Medieval Arab Islamic Culture which was supposed to be the combination of pragmatism and principle that you express here?

For the most part yes.