[colliric]

I got a sensational wide raging education because my parents sent me to a Religious (Anglican) Private Boys School.

They give you a much better and wider education.

Religious Studies is stupidly thought to be about one Religion and theology, when in practice it's about religious history and the Majority Religion in the country(Christianity) and every other Religion with time devoted in appropriate measure. It's really a focused version of "cultural studies".

English studies is about English, so it makes sense the literature used is English Literature. That's pretty stupid saying other cultures and languages should be represented in the school reading when the subject is in fact English Language Studies.

Those others should be read in the appropriate language class. If I study French, I should get a view of French literature(as I did). Not have French classics on my reading for English Literature (with the exception of Translation study purposes). I mean Shakespeare is naturally going to dominate English reading lists, RIGHTFULLY.

I studied:
MacBeth(School made us watch Roman Polanski's super-violent adaptation....)
Romeo & Juliet
Julius Caesar
Othello
Hamlet
Henry V

and several others across my indepth 2 subject(English + English Literature) multi-year study of my own language.

My favourite classes because I loved the Bard already..... I don't regret my school zeroing in on Shakespeare like mad. He is the greatest English language author ever.

[Igor Antunov]

Education should be catering to demand and the job market. It should go beyond mere academics and involve extensive vocational options/training. It is expensive and it is hard, so it must be highly targeted for the composition of the existing economy. Blowing $100,000 on theology is nice, but it won't put food on the table. Such novelty education should not receive tax payer support. If you are interested, and the demand or utility is very low, foot the bill.

[Tainari88]

Don't believe in that Igor. I think the top business people already covered this issue you bring up. They say they need independent critical thinkers and problem solvers. They did a survey of a bunch of top problem solvers. Many were English lit and English majors. More important was how they thought and if they could get groups of people to solve problems with creativity, tact and effectiveness.

The market can be narrow and not valuable in determining if a person is a critical thinker. Nowadays? Employers want flexible thinkers with foreign language, science, math and problem solving skills that write well, and can communicate with tools and techniques persuasively. It is not about narrow and very specialized thinking Igor. It is about making many connections and being able to think on a large scale how some concept is going to pan out. How to get the resources. Be creative and then use tools to analyze which people will do the job well. You can use Strength Finder 2.0. You can use Myers Briggs personality assessment heads.....you can do a bunch of things. Then figure out which person is correct for the role.

People vary. Some are going to do extremely well dealing with the public and building relationships with others. Others will do well only being left alone with minimal supervision and on a computer. Others do well being entrepreneurs and leaders in innovation. Others will do well on only technical things. Creative and inventive language? Not for them.

You got to identify who you are in that world? What are your strengths Igor?

[Godstud]

Lord of the Flies, 1984, Animal Farm, MacBeth, and To Kill a Mockingbird are teaching crap ideologies, or teaching them to think critically?

Sorry, I don't buy the fear-mongering associated with "indoctrination" stuff.

[Politiks]

"Great education" has a very broader definition, can have a series of different definitions that might vary a lot or little.

Let's say a great education is a school that tries to make students achieve excellence in math, logic, physics, literature, writing, chemistry, history, grammar, science, arts, biology. Most students wont pass the year, they wont achieve the so called excellence because the majority of humanity is average and bellow average.

Some might say society is the mirrors poor education I do agree with that but I also think average education is a reflection of a average humanity.

A great education requires a school with a lot of discipline and most people can't deal with that. My school was a high achievement one, and many left because they couldn't keep up with the necessary grades to pass the year or couldn't handle the discipline the school required.

A great education isn't a guarantee of a better future, sure improves your chances but if the student isn't willing to learn, if he or she doesn't make the right choices or is unable to apply to real life situations what he/she learned he/she will have less chances just like the average guy from the average high school.

People need to understand about politics, economics, trade, laws, world history, more than they think. Most people think banks make money out of money when they make money out of debt, that simple and basic principle is a pillar of so many things and should influence your decisions regarding your personal choices in investments.

The way the Marxist Culture was imposed every decade people will own less and less, very few will own more and more. In part is how TPTB operate society but at least 50% of it is on people because today is your choice to be ignorant or lazy enough to not care about how the world spins, the information is one click away but most people prefer not to learn.

[Tainari88]

Lord of the Flies, 1984, Animal Farm, MacBeth, and To Kill a Mockingbird are teaching crap ideologies, or teaching them to think critically?

Sorry, I don't buy the fear-mongering associated with "indoctrination" stuff.

I think we have a misinterpretation Godstud. My point was about too much focus on just one culture. All that stuff you cited is for English speaking cultures. I read all those books by the way. My point is? I want MORE. More diversity. How many authors you know from Japan, China, India, Nigeria, Argentina, Mexico, Indonesia, etc.? That you can make a list off the top of your head?

I really am serious with you Godstud about you being in Thailand and not speaking super fluent Thai by now and knowing Thai History like the back of your hand. You would not want me as your teacher Godstud. I am damn demanding. LOL.

Indoctrination for me is about teaching only one culture. The one that speaks English only. I think that limiting. I hope you get what I mean.

Your son should know his father's cultural background and speak English and read Harry Potter if you wish.....but he should know his mother's culture too and respect it. Greatly. And also add more. Chinese, Italian, French. I am demanding. My mother believed in many cultures and always adding knowledge. Never being 'content' with just one perspective. And too many of us Godstud remain content with only our own culture and nothing else. You have no excuse you dear man. You chose your wife. She is not Anglo. Learn her culture, her history, her country's history, her country's deep and abiding traditions and have that beautiful boy of yours be a universal and beautiful internationalist LEARNER. With an open mind to EVERYONE. And love all the cultures in the world. Because all human cultures have something to teach all of us. All of us.

That is not indoctrination. English is not enough Godstud. I hope they put that on my 'tombstone'. Lol.

BTW, Godstud, why would a Puerto Rican woman read a bunch of Japanese authors? Or Shakespeare? Or any great work of literature? Because I love art and it is not about race, or nationality. It is about universal human truth. But if you pull out your high school reading lists and college reading lists? How many authors have you read that is not about an English speaking writer? How can a Russian like Tolstoy have something to say to me? How many Canadian men in Thailand can name a single Cuban writer or a Puerto Rican writer Godstud? Can you name one without going to a thread or google? Why are some voices not known and others are? It is very very interesting? Each culture is a world. And those who are not from that culture find it mysterious. Crack the code.

Open up the unknown. You can't do it if you only feature art from one language group Godstud. Gabriel Garcia Marquez never wrote in English. But he was widely read in English. Why did he 'crack that code'. Art isn't limited to a certain cultural group. Yet in the reading lists.....go through that reading list Godstud? How many are not American or Canadian and how many wrote those books in a language that wasn't English first? That is what I am getting at. Give room for the billion plus Chinese, the 150 plus million Japanese, and everyone and his mama Indian writers who write in English and it is not the only language they speak either. That was my point.

[Godstud]

I have a really tough time learning Thai, but then I've never picked up languages well. I'm learning, but fluency?
No. I am far from that. The first thing I did in Thailand was read a good book on Thai history, and some Thai literature, so I am not ignorant of the country I am living in.

It's not indoctrination to teach one culture but it does tend to make people ethnocentric. This is easily cured by a little bit of travel, and going to places that are not close to the same culture as the one you left.

For Americans that means not simply going to the UK, Australia and Canada. The cultures don't differ enough.

One of my regrets is not travelling more when I was younger.

[colliric]

This is more easily achieved for average individuals by cultural, language and religious study subjects being taught in schools.

Alot of people still can't afford to travel overseas and these people should be learning about other cultures and religious beliefs in their classrooms.

This is why I oppose public schools ostracizing religious education and with it neutering the related cultural studies resulting in public school individuals being less educated about basic cultural beliefs.

Religious education isn't theology(which is Religious Philosophy), it is primarily an overview subject teaching about the structure and fundementals of the majority Religion (in Australia, Christianity), the other major Religions(Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism) and even incorporates minor Religions(Shintoism and the Chinese Ancestral Religion) and cults(like Mormonism and Scientology).

[Tainari88]

I have a really tough time learning Thai, but then I've never picked up languages well. I'm learning, but fluency?
No. I am far from that. The first thing I did in Thailand was read a good book on Thai history, and some Thai literature, so I am not ignorant of the country I am living in.

It's not indoctrination to teach one culture but it does tend to make people ethnocentric. This is easily cured by a little bit of travel, and going to places that are not close to the same culture as the one you left.

For Americans that means not simply going to the UK, Australia and Canada. The cultures don't differ enough.

One of my regrets is not travelling more when I was younger.

You are lucky Godstud. Most people don't get that chance for a lot of reasons. But you don't need to leave your village for getting to know something new. I think you have an open mind. But? Do you have any idea how many people I run into who only know authors or literature that is about English speaking people? It is global capitalism Americana style. Like that dude who said you don't know the USA because you are Canadian and you said, 'five years I lived there'. Lol. That ethnocentric crap? It is EVERYWHERE. That is indoctrination. It is. It is deliberately not teaching diversity. And that is where I get PISSED.

Tired of the tunnel vision educators. I don't care Godstud. If I were dealing with my situation in Thailand? In five years? Tainari would be speaking fluent Thai. Period. I don't care how hard that shit is. I would speak it. Guaranteed. Especially with a kid who is going to grow up there.

It helps if you are used to navigating more than one language every single day. I am older and so are you. Got to be forgiving for that. But the science says the more you learn new everyday? The younger your brain stays over time. Even saves you from Alzheimer's. Exercise, diet, lifestyle and now? Foreign language acquisitions are heavy hitters avoiding Alzheimer's. Who would have thought it?

Tainari has another thing she wants on her tombstone.....Imperial thinking is about thinking that you have a right to take away someone else's valid history, experience, language and identity. And NO ONE HAS THAT RIGHT. Fuck the imperialists and the way they think!

No one should think that way.

There is variation Godstud. That is true. What value speaking Thai has for your wife? A great one.

Why?

Because in reality? Variation in culture is really the same value as in nature. The reason for example the crops failed in the Irish Potato Famine of the 1840's was due to disease that the most prevalent and same genetic group of potatoes fell victim to. If you have a lot of potato varieties some fall victim to the fungus and some don't. Some survive because they vary. Not the same. You have changing environments. If there is variation? Some die off and some survive. What is interesting is that the surviving ones carry little instructions in which the died off ones might come back...but only if the conditions allow it. Variation is an integral part of survival in nature. Human culture many think and human language is not the same they argue. But is it so different? It really is not. Having too many of only one variation in thought, habits, paradigms, and culture and history and world view? What happens if that one way of thinking and being doesn't work? And everyone assimilated and everyone is following the same shit and the same shit doesn't cut it? To solve some problem? Ran out of options. Killed off all the possible variations of solving the issue. Because you believed that only one way and one language and one culture was the answer. Went against natural law and it bit you in the ass.

People find meaning in their own cultures and experiences, but they don't really know what they are, til they clash with a new one. A new culture and a new experience. It is the best way to find out who you are in this world Godstud. The clash is where its at.

Another Tainari 'tombstone' engraving:
The Clash is Where it is At.

[Tainari88]

This is more easily achieved for average individuals by cultural, language and religious study subjects being taught in schools.

Alot of people still can't afford to travel overseas and these people should be learning about other cultures and religious beliefs in their classrooms.

This is why I oppose public schools ostracizing religious education and with it neutering the related cultural studies resulting in public school individuals being less educated about basic cultural beliefs.

Religious education isn't theology(which is Religious Philosophy), it is primarily an overview subject teaching about the structure and fundementals of the majority Religion (in Australia, Christianity), the other major Religions(Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism) and even incorporates minor Religions(Shintoism and the Chinese Ancestral Religion) and cults(like Mormonism and Scientology).

Religions are part of human culture and history. That is a fact. Religion and Science are they destined to be arch rivals and arch enemies for all time? You know there is a book out there by Krishnamurti....and some physicist David Bohn I think his name was....was saying that Krishnamurti was talking about something that was relevant in physics.

There was a book by the Guru of Paramahansa Yogananda called Sri Yukteswar entitled "The Science of Religion" it is interesting. You got your ancient texts, the vedas from Indian religion of Hinduism and the Mahabarata. You study the vedas and try to practice a discipline from that sacred text. Ancient truths. Christian theology also. Religious history is filled with wars about interpretation of these ancient texts. Roman Catholic versus John Luther or John Calvin, Protestant interpretation of the same or different version of the bible. It could land you in a dungeon or dead for daring to believe a different interpretation.

Culture is best learned if it is not your native one? From the native people of that culture. Who best to teach Polish history but from Polish natives who still speak native Polish fluently. Not people who only read about Polish history but never met any Poles.

You are getting interesting to me Colliric. You are Chinese descent from Hong Kong? Yet you grew up Anglican, Christian and Australian? You married an Anglo Australian or a Chinese Australian? Just curious.

[davidbilly]

You believing it won't make it so. Most scientist believe that intelligence is innate and stable. There are many examples of geniuses without any formal education.

That's because geniuses are self-aware on how to educate themselves in the best possible way which obviously formal education couldn't provide these kind of people, And Oh! they don't hang around labeling their IQ to prove themselves.

[Godstud]

Yep. Fuck IQ tests. MY father couldn't pass any of those, as he had dyslexia, but if you'd met him you'd trust him, and he knew how to run a company better than most people you'll meet. He was a spectacular manager of people, as well.

I don't think you can quantify intelligence in a meaningful way. I've know some very high IQ people who were fucking useless when it came to real world application of that intellect.

[Suntzu]

Yep, stupid folks seldom put any stock in I.Q. tests.

[Godstud]

Some people think that making Ad Hominems makes them seem witty. IQ measures a person's reasoning ability. That doesn't mean they use it all the time, or even well.

Also, IQ doesn't measure how socialized a person is. A quite intelligent person might be a social paraih.

[colliric]

My dad left school young(14 I think... More common back then), yet he taught me more about Ancient Roman and Greek History than anything I ever learnt in history class. A walking encyclopaedia on Ancient Rome he was.

Loved discussing wars(Ancient, medieval, classical and modern) too.

Taught me alot.

[Godstud]

Right, and IQ doesn't measure acquired knowledge.

[SolarCross]

Also, IQ doesn't measure how socialized a person is. A quite intelligent person might be a social paraih.

Why would an intelligence test measure charisma?

[JohnRawls]

Yep, stupid folks seldom put any stock in I.Q. tests.

Actually, most of the people on this forum probably fall between 120-150 I.Q even the more stupider posters.
Simple discussion of politics requires you to have above average understanding of vague concepts. (even if you don't understand them fully, you still understand something)

[Tainari88]

Actually, most of the people on this forum probably fall between 120-150 I.Q even the more stupider posters.
Simple discussion of politics requires you to have above average understanding of vague concepts. (even if you don't understand them fully, you still understand something)

Tom Cruise is a 90 or something only 10 points above a Forrest Gump guy. Cruise is dyslexic, had trouble reading. It never meant he was a dummie. I don't think IQ is the great determinant of accomplishment and hard work and deep thought. Most people fall between 88-110. I never thought I had an IQ test done on me, til my father told me he had me tested when I was five years old in NYC in 1971. Showed me some index card with my results. After I was almost 20 years old.

He told me, "It is all bullshit. More important by far is to question everything, read like a maniac, write, and learn all the time new and interesting things. Never be satisfied with conventional perspectives." He was so right. He was from another era. Born in 1933. He was a high school dropout and then while in the US Air Force he finished his GED in Japan and took Japanese art. Fell in love with Japanese culture. He then started going to the university and he eventually graduated with high honors and went to graduate school and got two master's degrees from the USA. He had been told all his life he was some inferior person because he came from the most poor people living in the very worst ghetto in Puerto Rico. All the racists say that about very poor people who don't speak English natively in that historical time period. Racism, classism and stupidity. I wonder how many people they waste with fine minds like my father's? Believing in that racist shit?

I adopted my older son from foster care. Everyone said he was a 'tough' case. That I should not have high expectations from him. He was nine years old when I adopted him. So much 'garbage' I was told about how I had to lower my expectations. In the end? All that crap they said about how he would not learn well and he could not do x or y? All lies. Racist lies again. People need to stop with the racist lies. If you have to 'categorize' people in order to justify that the reason someone has more money in the bank is because they are geniuses and the poor are morons? Then you are the one who is a moron.

It is all just an excuse to not invest in the poor. Wasting human potential everyday by being that oppressive, unjust, unfair and ignorant.

[4cal]

Because great educations are too expensive and require too many sacrifices from taxpayers?
Because they are not as necessary as time goes by?
Because not everyone can use a fine education?
Because education is something that should be left up to parents only to determine?
Because teachers have too many unions and are not pressured out for incompetence from the system?
Because the only people worthy of a great education are the middle class and the wealthy?
Education is just hard. Administering it, delivering it and implementing it? Too hard. Got to give up on educating people. A pain in the ass.
I wanted to have this happen in a poll? Why did the poll not show up?

I'll turn it around. "Giving" is the wrong thing to do. PhD's just don't happen. She or he decided they wanted to pursue X and if a PhD was necessary to obtain it...they went after it.

Now, is your question, "What is the principal reasons for not giving people the same opportunity to pursue great educations"? Because then I think you're on to something. What is the reason? There are many reasons I guess. I'm hoping this isn't it but the old adage that goes like this seems to be at work:
"Nothing changes because those that can change the situation have too much invested in maintaining the status quo."

Just some thoughts on this....

We should forget trying to define education....some of the most successful people never went to college.
We should forget trying to define success....some of the happiest people I know are wage earners and you wouldn't call them runaway successes
We should forget trying to define happiness...what satisfies you is not what may satisfy me.

So what should we do? I think we should provide experiences galore for kids. Show them Yosemite; what the ocean looks like; overnight at an observatory; visit the industrial farms to understand that what you see on your plate has roots (pardon the pun) somewhere that involves people who get their hands dirty both with dirt and the blood of pigs and cows. See transportation up close, how stuff is transported around the nation. Push the kids to not only study for the test but learn why there is a Yosemite Valley, why the Oceans are so active at some points and so placid at others, get a feel for the distant planets and heavenly bodies.... Many kids won't care about the trip to the observatory or to the distribution hub but some will. I bet you get some process engineers out of