[B0ycey]

Most scientist believe that intelligence is innate and stable.

Do you stand by that statement? It's funny as it contradicts studies that suggest genetics and the persons environment contribute equally to their intelligence (so not innate or stable). I wonder why most scientists don't agree with their findings?

[The Immortal Goon]

It’s not in the interest of the ruling elites to educate their workers.

That’s about it.

It is in their interest to encourage the Dunning–Kruger effect, however.

[Tainari88]

@The Immortal Goon I agree 100% with your assessment.

I want to add that educate comes from the Latin root of 'educare' or to 'form'. Instruction is not the same as education. Instructed people are taught to follow instructions, commands and to follow a pecking order. Many times these pecking orders are set up to perpetuate the same system.

Poor people notoriously get only inferior educations because the resources are lacking. Inexperienced teachers and struggling school districts. The districts I used to volunteer as a reading tutor for elementary school kids had issues galore. Teachers with no teacher's aids in the classrooms, 30 or more pupils per room. Low amount of adult trained people in there who could tutor the kids falling behind in reading, writing and arithmetic. And kids who don't speak English well not getting help like they needed, and alllowed to fall behind academically, because no one wants to spend on multicultural or multilingual educations. Even though the Germans do it, the Finns do it, the Swedes and many more do it. But in America? Sheer shit. Foreign languages, advanced science projects, mathematics that include calculus and trig and so on? No.

Not in some 'bad' school district. Teachers I have met? Some good and some bad. The good ones know what they are doing and are dedicated. The bad ones? Racist, conventional assholes without an ounce of ability or creativity collecting a paycheck.

Educating is about forming human beings. Not instructing them. It means giving them the tools required to hone their own independent and critical thinking skills, and to apply holistic methods when analyzing tough concepts.

Above all truly educated people are people who have a command of a very broad spectrum of subjects, and can delve into them with interdisciplinary skills, and be able to cross reference and correlate concepts. They should be people who always are curious about obtaining, evaluating, assessing and synthesizing knowledge that builds on what they love, and what they hope to improve upon.

I have met @The Immortal Goon many well instructed people. Not very many well educated ones in my life. People who know how to be technical, and know how to be precise, and know how to be following the instructions well. But who think very deeply, are self reflective, and who want to capture difficult concepts, and are fired up about intellectually stimulating and challenging things? Who are lifelong learners and love knowledge because it liberates minds and lives....brings freedom and choice, and it makes for a completely formed--Well formed human mind and person. Educare. The Latin 'to form'. It ultimately transforms your life.

Someone mentioned and I wish I remembered who said it....they said, "It pays great dividends to always remain curious and always ask questions and to question every aspect of the society you live under....if you do that? You will never fail in becoming educated at some point." That is very true.

[Godstud]

It's not just teachers, but how involved parents get. A lot of parents now don't give a fuck what their kid learns as long as they are out of their hair for 7 hours a day.

'It takes a Village', to quote Hillary Clinton. She was absolutely correct.

[Tainari88]

It's not just teachers, but how involved parents get. A lot of parents now don't give a fuck what their kid learns as long as they are out of their hair for 7 hours a day.

'It takes a Village', to quote Hillary Clinton. She was absolutely correct.

It takes a village was Hillary quoting an old African proverb. Africans are communal people and rely on Village elders. The task of educating little children when you live under the present capitalism here in the USA....? Is overwhelming. I stopped working for over two and half years to raise my baby son at the time. We calculated how much money we would have to spend on daycare? And it was not worth it. Work to pay a bill of day care and not see my baby? No.

I had no help Godstud. Zippo. My mother was gone. So was my father. My in laws both dead. No one to lend a hand. Just my husband working two jobs and me staying home. It was exhausting. Cook, clean, breastfeed, change diapers, housework, do this or that. Husband working double shifts. This country is hard as hell on working parents with no extended family. Everything related to children is expensive here. Activities, good preschools, etc.

One needs help with kids. It can't be just the two parents working full time, studying and then raising kids all at once....that shit is unreal and too hard for a mortal human to accomplish.

I always remained involved with my sons educations. Always. I had challenging kids Godstud. My first son was adopted and was allowed to grow some bad habits through neglectful foster care parents who parked him in front of some 'Nintendo' machine. I broke the Nintendo machine and said to him, "Got to study. No more wasting your potential. No more whining about Spanish and French being too hard to learn. Bullshit. I don't care about what your friends who have rich lazy American white people as parents who can't be bothered to supervise their kids schoolwork. That is not us.

It is not easy.

[Godstud]

Oh no, it's not easy. It's something important, though.

I told my wife, when I met her that I don't want her working, until our son is old enough to come home from school and take care of himself(So around 11-13). I wanted my son to get as much attention as possible, and the best education as well.

I send my son to private schooling. It's inexpensive, and he gets a good education. Even so, as he gets older I am going to home-school him in English. He gets English teaching in school, but it's not going to be sufficient for an advanced education in somewhere like Canada, or the UK. I want him reading Harry Potter and stuff by the time he's 12(He's 7, now).

You have to engage yourself with teachers, and find out what your kids are learning, and enhance the education, if possible. Our parents used to do the same for us, and you need to to give them a good education. Education doesn't stop after school is over.

As for having relatives a plenty to help... I"m lucky we have that. We have oodles of uncles, aunts, cousins, etc.

In the end, if you emphasize how important school is, your children will understand. Start young.

[Tainari88]

Oh no, it's not easy. It's something important, though.

I told my wife, when I met her that I don't want her working, until our son is old enough to come home from school and take care of himself(So around 11-13). I wanted my son to get as much attention as possible, and the best education as well.

I send my son to private schooling. It's inexpensive, and he gets a good education. Even so, as he gets older I am going to home-school him in English. He gets English teaching in school, but it's not going to be sufficient for an advanced education in somewhere like Canada, or the UK. I want him reading Harry Potter and stuff by the time he's 12(He's 7, now).

You have to engage yourself with teachers, and find out what your kids are learning, and enhance the education, if possible. Our parents used to do the same for us, and you need to to give them a good education. Education doesn't stop after school is over.

As for having relatives a plenty to help... I"m lucky we have that. We have oodles of uncles, aunts, cousins, etc.

In the end, if you emphasize how important school is, your children will understand. Start young.

Oh Godstud. That is great. Here? For infant care? Looking at a minimum of $2000 dollars a month. Just for 4 days a week. Monday through Thursdays. Toddler care $1800 a month. Then you got to pay separate for diapers and so on. Could not afford it Godstud. My salary would have to be replaced. So my husband got a second job. I also am an older mom with a chronic illness. So? It was exhaustion for me.

Nevertheless I loved having him. I enjoyed being pregnant with him. It was so beautiful. If I had more money and more youth I would have had more children. But it is not my destiny. Looks like my destiny is not what I thought it would be when I was younger. Life is ever changing.

I wonder....being pregnant at 51 is rare isn't it? Lol. It is exhausting for young women who are healthy and so on.....not me. But the reward of having a baby again? How LOVELY.

[Godstud]

Having a child at 51 is probably very rare, in most places, although women are having children later. Heck, my mom had me when she was 38, so it's not like it's new(I'm 50).

I know that child care costs are thru the roof in many places, and it's a shame. Education and child care are supremely important, and there needs to be more money for benefits to mothers and education rather than buying more fighter jets, or military bases.

Good luck with the baby, though! I've got my wife pressuring me to have one, and I can see another child is in my future.

[Tainari88]

If you want another child? You should have one. I think you have older grown up kids. That means you had them fairly young the first set.

I had my first biological child at age 45 and a half. That is old for a woman married for what--27 years? No one could explain why I did not get pregnant all through my 20s and 30s and most of my 40s. All this kid having is a mystery and I have no explanation Godstud. Women are supposed to be infertile by the time they hit mid forties for sure. I think it was a miracle. That is how I see it.

Stopped hoping for my own biological child at 40. Adopted and forgot about having a pregnancy. But I never spent a dime on artificial treatments. I never had that kind of dough anyway and I figured if you want to be a parent plenty of kids right here already who need them. I am not into 'genes' and so on. For me? Parenting is about love and logic and being responsible and guidance.

Education? You better be aware that the system won't educate your kids for you. They are interested in indoctrination and many times don't have quality to offer. I have a unique history of how I was educated. It is not easy to replicate for another child. It was spectacular. I love my education. Would not trade it for all the world.

[4cal]

I choose "other".

Drucker (perhaps???) said "What gets measured gets done". We seem to live and die by that adage or slogan or whatever you want to call it. Those doing the measuring do not recognize what education is. Adding up a series of numbers isn't education anymore than temporarily memorizing a set of agreed-upon facts long enough to demonstrate it on a test.

We need to set up different measurements at different times in a student's development so that by age 8, there are a series of mastery, by age 10 you have a different series objectives that stress less formula usage and more problem solving and so on.

[Political Interest]

I have experiences of teachers giving up on me and in many cases being unhelpful. They had a purely meritocratic attitude to education and this is unfortunately very common among many teachers. If a student is too difficult to train or educate many will simply conclude that they cannot be helped, even those certified with learning difficulties. It was interesting that it seemed to be a competitive attitude to education. Only the best can go forward. Something I also remember is that the education was made silly, it could involve games or there were attempts to make it 'fun'.

[Wellsy]

It takes a village was Hillary quoting an old African proverb. Africans are communal people and rely on Village elders. The task of educating little children when you live under the present capitalism here in the USA....? Is overwhelming. I stopped working for over two and half years to raise my baby son at the time. We calculated how much money we would have to spend on daycare? And it was not worth it. Work to pay a bill of day care and not see my baby? No.

I been talking to an mother on another forum in regards to this issue of how daycares just aren't feasible and that the best route seems to be to support mothers in caring for their own kids rather than a socialized care. The social element should be in giving mothers the resources to adequately care for kids and provide avenues that they can be socially supported (there seems mother groups of some sort and other things as understandably many do not have big family supports).
Because the tension between women working and the idea that they can be full time mothers is incompatible with the poverty and lack of power many working women have.
https://aifs.gov.au/publications/family-matters/issue-86/persistent-work-family-strain-among-australian-mothers

In conclusion, Australian mothers in recent decades have greatly increased their participation in the labour market. Fathers, however, have not increased their participation in unpaid household work to a matching degree. But, without equal sharing of the dual roles of earner and carer between mothers and fathers, mothers will inevitably feel the work-family tension more keenly. Furthermore, institutional and structural changes supporting mothers' increased workforce participation are few and slow coming. Consequently, working mothers faced with the challenge of reconciling family and work commitments are often forced to find individual solutions. However, work and family life balance is not a problem specific to individual families. Rather, it is a universal problem shared by many families, and as such it requires institutional and structural changes supported by society as a whole.

Many men are picking up more in child rearing and housework but its still on average disproportionately women and I guess some part of that is the economic rationality of men intensifying paid work when theres a new born.
But also that men aren't always cultivated with a sense of responsibility for the home as much and can be perceived as doing extra.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/attachments/153068/ogolsky-dennison-monk-2014.pdf

Although more and more men are contributing to household and family responsibilities, many continue “to hold the ‘psychological responsibility’ for the financial stability of the family even when the wife is employed” (Perry-Jenkins and Crouter 1990, p. 140). Thus, husbands may consider any amount of household labor they do a contribution, characterizing it as “helping” their wives. When husbands believe that they are helping their wives, especially when they compare themselves favorably to their peers (Greenstein 1996a, 2009), they can easily feel disappointment or frustration when perceptions of the division are not viewed as such by wives with lower behavioral egalitarianism. Husbands may see their labor as ending when they return home from work, whereas wives may see themselves as having to then start a “second shift” of housework (e.g., ‘9 to 5’ work day for husbands vs. ‘24 hour’ work for wife and mother; see Hochschild and Machung 2003). This disconnect may be reflected in perceptions of marital quality by both parties. If trends in higher cognitive and behavioral egalitarianism continue, yet women are not held accountable for the provider role and men for household tasks, discrepancies in husbands’ and wives’ behavioral egalitarianism may persist.

To which boys with mothers who work often raised to do more housework and girls often grow up to be more ambitious in their careers because their parents model that such labor/tasks isn't defined so much by sex. So it becomes superfluous and simply a matter of being responsible adult.

For this mother her gripe was with how modern feminism in academia largely doesn't talk about motherhood except to dispel maternal ideologies that reduce women to mothering role. The issue being that motherhood and parenting in general is important and valuable.

If you want another child? You should have one. I think you have older grown up kids. That means you had them fairly young the first set.
I took it light on them by only saying that need to re-organize women to press for things like paid maternity leave which I emphasized as a class issue because the tension is with the interests of employers/capitalists and such who want women at work for them and often not allowing the flexibility and support raising a child would be best suited to.
Which is a pain in the ass for all, my mother in law spoke of how to do something for kids mums had to take a whole day off from working at the bank instead of something like leave a few hours early and catch up later. The issue became childless women often had to work longer hours for the lack of workers when mothers had to attend to their kids. All because previously the role was based on a man without responsibilities to dependents/children.
I had my first biological child at age 45 and a half. That is old for a woman married for what--27 years? No one could explain why I did not get pregnant all through my 20s and 30s and most of my 40s. All this kid having is a mystery and I have no explanation Godstud. Women are supposed to be infertile by the time they hit mid forties for sure. I think it was a miracle. That is how I see it.

Stopped hoping for my own biological child at 40. Adopted and forgot about having a pregnancy. But I never spent a dime on artificial treatments.

I heard of this for my wife's auntie, she adopted 2-3 kids then suddenly got pregnant in her late 30's, early 40's.
I wonder how much infertility has to do with one's psychological/emotional state, in how say being more confident, less anxious and adjusted affects one physically.
Just wondering if by then a lot of women have gotten past a lot of hang ups they had when they were young as have a lot of men.

And in regards to what was mentioned about it taking a village and it not enough for the education system, I entirely agree. Which always leads to a expanding point of improving society in general. One could of course have a universally great education system across a nation and it wouldn't necessarily undermine a lot of the education issues because of social problems outside of school. It would help many but some can't. I remember my wife telling me a boy whose mother used drugs, he would wake up early to prepare lunch for himself and his younger brother and get himself and his brother off to school.
The kid couldn't pay attention in class because he was working extra hard and lacking necessary sleep for a young lad. They diagnosed him with ADHD because of his poor attention, but eventually CPS took him away to his grandparents and his schooling suddenly improved, because he was being well cared for and was able to be attentive. Society breaks down out of poverty, a poverty that is endemic to capitalism from its very originates, one that is structurally necessitated.
https://kapitalism101.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/marginal-futility-reflections-on-simon-clarkes-marx-marginalism-and-modern-sociology/

I like the way Clarke develop his proof this problem: Commodity exchange presupposes individuals with different needs and different resources because if everyone had the same stuff there would be no reason for exchange. Thus exchange presupposes differences. If exchange is systematic these differences must also be systematic. Thus the formal equality and freedom of exchange is founded on different resource endowments. This means that the content of exchange can’t be reduced to its form (free, juridically equal relations between people) but must be found outside of exchange in the realm of production and property.

And we see such social problems because people are pressed down so very hard and far.

[Tainari88]

@Wellsy yes you hit the nail on the head with a lot of the issues with families, working women and working mothers with dependent children. Also what is an education? The ability to analyze the system you live under thoroughly and have tremendous analytical, and cognitive skills and be able to bring forth solutions to transform problems in society. I think one has to realize Capitalism's base is about profit, property and power relationships based on money or economic might and property rights. Poor people are screwed in such a system. And poor people are not a tiny minority in the world? So? Got to do something about changing the unbalanced power relationships or accept inequality and problems galore socially forever. I don't want a bad society for my little boy or older son. My older son already got hit with parents who were black people with zero education, drug problems and jail and crime and bleak futures. It took everything I had to get him to graduate, stay out of trouble, get a 'real' education, and be able to work for a living as he goes to the university at the same time. It took a lot of effort from a lot of people to make up the deficit left by a sucky racist, class conscious society.

Being educated is about not living in instruction mode only believing everything is "A" ok and chugging along well. I hear that garbage from comfortable white, privileged asshole people who never in their lives ever reflect on their own lives with any truth or responsibility....crap thoughts of "the system works for me. I worked hard. Did the right things and now? I make a lot of money and live in a great Good Housekeeping magazine home and we go to Disney World once a year and Paris, France vacations too....the system is GREAT!" Assholes. For them it works beautifully. How about the billions living in poverty in the Third World...it SUCKS. But who cares about them? They are inferiors and garbage people. Why worry about some people who you don't know? Assholes.

[Suntzu]

I worked hard. Did the right things and now? I make a lot of money and live in a great Good Housekeeping magazine home and we go to Disney World once a year and Paris, France vacations too....the system is GREAT!" 'Xactly!

[Tainari88]

Yes, and there are princes and billionaires too. Lol. Suntzu I really don't like how you think...but you make me laugh with your comments once in a while.

[Suntzu]

Yes, and there are princes and billionaires too. Lol. Suntzu I really don't like how you think...but you make me laugh with your comments once in a while.

Once we hang the princes and billionaires everything will be O.K.!

[Victoribus Spolia]

Depends on how you define "great education." A great education by some standards is basic competency as opposed to none at all (ability to read, do basic math, basic health/anatomy, basic history, etc).

Much of this has to do with Dewey's model of pragmatism v. classical education. Dewey argued for an education based on what will make a person a better contributor to society. This education, being less intensive, was therefore more ably mass-produced to guarantee universal public education.

I see a great education as that which trains a person to reason effectively and to think independently. Such requires intensive training in languages (especially those from which the native speaker's language derives), philosophy, logic, rhetoric, ancient history, and the classics. This education is not "great" because it makes one suited to run a control board on a CNC machine or work at Wal-Mart with acceptable competency, but it does guarantee that the individual can think on his feet and critically.

The problem with this "Great education," is that it cannot be, as far as I can tell, universally implemented in the same way as Dewey's pragmatic methods, it just too demanding for some people.

Thus, If great education is not possible at a universal level, then the reason we cannot give a great education is ultimately because not all people can be educated to that level. Why? Well, like with anything, it includes a hodgepodge of factors which include the subjective (competence originating in child-rearing and even genetics), and the objective (financial considerations/collective will).

Oppositely, we have killed hereditary trades, thus artisan craftsmanship is also dead. We are only left with shitty status-quo assembly line educations.

We have a mass-produced and industrialized capitalist society, great education is not valued because it is not needed. Why does a machine-operator need to know logic for? At the same time, if that machine ever broke down because we ran out of oil, what would that man know how to do competently?

The situation is not justified with "principal reasons," No one makes excuse for it or even defends it, they just say that it is the way it has to be. What can be done?

[Tainari88]

I have experiences of teachers giving up on me and in many cases being unhelpful. They had a purely meritocratic attitude to education and this is unfortunately very common among many teachers. If a student is too difficult to train or educate many will simply conclude that they cannot be helped, even those certified with learning difficulties. It was interesting that it seemed to be a competitive attitude to education. Only the best can go forward. Something I also remember is that the education was made silly, it could involve games or there were attempts to make it 'fun'.

Yes, Political Interest, this is exactly the issue I have with the conventional public and many private school educations offered out there. They want easy to educate kids. Who's parents have enormous resources, they can afford 'Kumon' and "Silverton Learning Center" tutors and fees, who have access to individualized instruction and can travel to many nations all over the world. Parents who are low in income but have tremendously advanced educations also do well. The big challenge are the kids with no books in the household, who's parents hardly have conversations with their kids, and because of that don't develop their vocabularies well. Who are surrounded by people who are under extreme pressure. Have you heard of Donna Beagle Political Interest? She is a white woman who grew up with absolute, abject poverty and no resources. She explains what it is like for extremely poor people and why they don't get any kind of education. She was like that. She went from high school drop out to PhD within ten years and explains what and why that happened. And she believes if the entire system is changed that it can happen for many students. She is right. But you should see how the wealthy react to her propositions. Lol. It is about class struggle. It is.

Very interesting. You are a beautiful, intelligent kid....any teacher who thought you were not? Was wrong PI.

[Godstud]

Education? You better be aware that the system won't educate your kids for you. They are interested in indoctrination and many times don't have quality to offer.

The only thing education is supposed to do is make you basically qualified to get out there and be reasonably proficient at math, history, reading, writing, etc.

It is not "indoctrination" but simply teaching your children how to learn. Most of the things people really learn has nothing to do with school, and you learn more AFTER school, than in it.

Schools aren't teaching ideology. That's a myth.

[Tainari88]

The only thing education is supposed to do is make you basically qualified to get out there and be reasonably proficient at math, history, reading, writing, etc.

It is not "indoctrination" but simply teaching your children how to learn. Most of the things people really learn has nothing to do with school, and you learn more AFTER school, than in it.

Schools aren't teaching ideology. That's a myth.

Schools teach history? From which perspective? Because Howard Zinn's version of history is not some creationist bible school's version Godstud. Reading? What is on the reading list? Is it people and authors that reflect a wide selection of both men and women, black and white, Latino, Chinese, Irish, Russian, African continent writers? Or is it all only Mark Twain and John Steinbeck? There is indoctrination Godstud. In every aspect of school. It is mostly a very liberal, very white and very wishy washy one. That is my experience.

That is why I chose an internationalist education for both my sons. IB curriculum guarantees of fluency in foreign languages by 12th grade graduation and a curriculum accepted all over the world and not just the USA.

Travel and exposure to other cultures for two years straight in the junior and senior year of high school. So many people told me, "how did you get a kid at 9 years old? To do this or that...learn Spanish fluently and do French and do this? How did you get this? I could not even do that spending thousands with my kid." The formula is simple. You practice what you preach and you are consistent. If my kid did not answer me in Spanish or the language I required....? Not heard. You either speak it or no listening going on. Forced him to work on speaking it. Confronted the bullshit prejudices head on......why is English so damn important? You don't know? It is because they pressure people here to assimilate. I am not going to assimilate. Period. They can stick their English language is the only important one straight up their ass.

Work. You understand it. Read it. Write it. Speak it every damn day. Reinforce it night and day and day and night. CONSTANT. Final result? The foster care child who all the social workers thought was average only in intelligence and was too traumatized to do advanced math, be fluent in foreign languages, could not compete with rich white kids....ALL BULLSHIT. Gene Master Race Nazi Fucking Asshole theories about if a black male who has a jailed father and a drug addict mother is a worthless genetic defective NON LEARNER destined to lose in life? That theory is WRONG. It sucks. You can educate the supposedly 'throw away' kids and they will KICK ass academically. You need to stop with the low expectations and the Nazi class conscious DUMB ass theories and do some hard work. Stop the trash talk and care and love these kids and work your ass off. Invest in the 'trash' kids and they will kick ass academically.

No more fucking Nazi gene theory bullshit. It is all false stupidities. From people who refuse to do the work involved. Lazy, racist fools with bad theories.

There. Feel much better. Got that off my chest. Hee hee.