[Rugoz]

There will be, in a historically short period of time, no industrial economies to speak of. Too many people, high demand for finite resources, and the gears of the machinery will grind to a halt. Most of humanity will die.

I this wishful thinking from your part? There's no reason to believe any of this will happen. Natural resource rents are a few percent of world GDP at best and extraction costs are below rents (far below in some cases). Neither are natural resources really finite.

[SolarCross]

Do you think that is a photo from the era?

That image seems to be from the Armenian genocide.

There are no photos from the early conquests. ISIS does the same thing. Turkish "secular nationalists" are still muslim really, they weren't apostates were they? One day they'll get you too POD, aren't you an atheist? They are a lot less gentle on atheists than they are Christians.

[Pants-of-dog]

There are no photos from the early conquests. ISIS does the same thing. Turkish "secular nationalists" are still muslim really, they weren't apostates were they? One day they'll get you too POD, aren't you an atheist? They are a lot less gentle on atheists than they are Christians.

Again, you are incorrect about my beliefs.

On to more relevant things, you have not provided any rebuttal to my point that the early Muslim conquests were not a war against Christianity so much as a war against whomever happened to be a neighbour of Muslim lands at the time.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

Turkish "secular nationalists" are still muslim really, they weren't apostates were they?

I can't believe I live in a world where people think secular nationalists are Muslim. Also, yes, they were atheists and fought to replace religion with nationalism as the binding force of the nation. The fact that you're running your mouth about something that you not only don't know but don't care about and are using those stupid ass assumptions as fact really displays your own sense of hypocrisy.

Also anyone using ISIS as proof of "Islamic brutality" clearly doesn't know anything about Islam. Are all Christians cannibals for eating townspeople during the Crusades?

[SolarCross]

Again, you are incorrect about my beliefs.

So what are you then? I don't believe you could be a Christian.

On to more relevant things, you have not provided any rebuttal to my point that the early Muslim conquests were not a war against Christianity so much as a war against whomever happened to be a neighbour of Muslim lands at the time.

Well I have been saying form the beginning that Christians aren't the only targets for jihad, jews are particularly hated as are polytheists. The hindus and buddhists get a rought time too. Islam is at war with everything not-Islam including vast swathes of Islam that isn't the right kind of Islam lol. The early empires weren't secular empires just prowling after land and taxes they were very specifically religiously motivated empires. Anything headed by a "Caliph" is literally a theocratic regime. The early conquests were explicitly religious programs lead by explictly religious leaders.

[Pants-of-dog]

So we agree that is was not a war against Christianity, per se, but instead was a series of conquests targeting any group that could be conquered.

If you want to ignore basic, material, rational motives and focus solely on religion, go ahead.

I hope you understand why the rest of us prefer a more realistic and nuanced view.

[SolarCross]

So we agree that is was not a war against Christianity, per se, but instead was a series of conquests targeting any group that could be conquered.

If you want to ignore basic, material, rational motives and focus solely on religion, go ahead.

I hope you understand why the rest of us prefer a more realistic and nuanced view.

It is a war against everyone because of their different ideological affiliation, that is not an ordinary "basic, material, rational" motive. The followers of Mighty Mo were not making their own version of Pax Romana, just an ideologically neutral transnational security business, they were specifically engaged in ideologically motivated repression, the purpose of their empires is to oppress other kinds of believers. You are the one ignoring the explicit goal of ideological repression.

---------

Also could you finally come clean about your beliefs? I asked you a question and you didn't answer it.

[Oxymandias]

It is a war against everyone because of their different ideological affiliation, that is not an ordinary "basic, material, rational" motive. The followers of Mighty Mo were not making their own version of Pax Romana, just an ideologically neutral transnational security business, they were specifically engaged in ideologically motivated repression, the purpose of their empires is to oppress other kinds of believers. You are the one ignoring the explicit goal of ideological repression.

Dude, you literally know nothing about Islam. You tell others that they have no right to speak about something they haven't read but continue to talk about the Quran despite never even have held one in your hands. You say that it is necessary to be skeptical but you take whatever Bill French says at face value without bothering to verify what he's saying just because it confirms with your narrative.

If I asked you to give me proof for anything you are saying, especially what you're saying now, you would just post loads of Youtube videos and not give me a single solid source of primary information.

And then you have the audacity to make stupid assumptions about another person's belief just because they don't think that Islam is the big bad boogey man that's out to get you. You're a joke SolarCross, you're literally the guy who's in every single crackpot conservative joke and you literally are proud of that.

[SolarCross]

You're a joke SolarCross, you're literally the guy who's in every single crackpot conservative joke and you literally are proud of that.

Says a liar.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is a war against everyone because of their different ideological affiliation, that is not an ordinary "basic, material, rational" motive. The followers of Mighty Mo were not making their own version of Pax Romana, just an ideologically neutral transnational security business, they were specifically engaged in ideologically motivated repression, the purpose of their empires is to oppress other kinds of believers. You are the one ignoring the explicit goal of ideological repression.

I guess I have to do that thing where I repeat myslef three times and bold certain key words.

Amassing wealth is a basic, material, rational motive that has nothing to do with religion.

Acquiring more land and control of land is also a basic, material, rational motive.

Hqving more land and weqlth means having power, which is another basic, material, rational motive that you are ignoring.

Also could you finally come clean about your beliefs? I asked you a question and you didn't answer it.

I have no idea why you think I would share my personal spiritual beliefs with you.

Just like I have no idea why you think I should answer a question just because you asked.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

You still haven't proven that I'm a liar. Calling someone a liar because they say things that you don't like doesn't make them so. In fact, based on your pathetic set of political beliefs, they certainly are spreading more truth than you ever have in your life.

[SolarCross]

I guess I have to do that thing where I repeat myslef three times and bold certain key words.

Amassing wealth is a basic, material, rational motive that has nothing to do with religion.

Acquiring more land and control of land is also a basic, material, rational motive.

Hqving more land and weqlth means having power, which is another basic, material, rational motive that you are ignoring.

That is your spin on it which has nothing to do with what happened.

I have no idea why you think I would share my personal spiritual beliefs with you.

Just like I have no idea why you think I should answer a question just because you asked.

Well every decent person on pofo does so. I guess if your beliefs are shameful in some way by all means keep it secret.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

Some people tend to prefer privacy SolarCross. Not everyone has to post their face, personal life, and social security number on this website. Decency revolves around the idea of keeping to yourself. PoD is certainly more decent than you'll ever be.

[annatar1914]

I this wishful thinking from your part? There's no reason to believe any of this will happen. Natural resource rents are a few percent of world GDP at best and extraction costs are below rents (far below in some cases). Neither are natural resources really finite.

I think that you are in denial, but seriously I hope i'm wrong. I just know in my gut that i'm not. In any case, I don't want to stray too far from the OP on this thread.

Another couple centuries, and I believe that we'll be about at the technological level of the time of the Crusades, though.

[Pants-of-dog]

That is your spin on it which has nothing to do with what happened.

Are you seriously arguing that the early Muslim conquests had nothing to do with acquiring land, wealth, and power?

Well every decent person on pofo does so. I guess if your beliefs are shameful in some way by all means keep it secret.

This here is a good confirmation for why I should not share anything with you.

[Oxymandias]

@Pants-of-dog

One of the bigger motivations was population. 7th century Arabia experienced a population boom at the time and Arabia alone was incapable of maintaining that population. A large part of the early Islamic conquests were accompanied by migrations into larger, fertile, and more spacious territories than the inhospitable deserts of Arabia.

Commerce was another big motivation. During the 7th century, the Silk Road and other major trade routes shifted from Arabia towards the Mediterranean and Central Asia leaving Arabia irrelevant. One big goal of the conquests was to reacquire the major trade routes which pass through the Middle East and generates it's wealth.

[SolarCross]

One of the bigger motivations was population. 7th century Arabia experienced a population boom at the time and Arabia alone was incapable of maintaining that population. A large part of the early Islamic conquests were accompanied by migrations into larger, fertile, and more spacious territories than the inhospitable deserts of Arabia.

Commerce was another big motivation. During the 7th century, the Silk Road and other major trade routes shifted from Arabia towards the Mediterranean and Central Asia leaving Arabia irrelevant. One big goal of the conquests was to reacquire the major trade routes which pass through the Middle East and generates it's wealth.

Evidence of this hypothetical? The early muslims wrote about their motivations, did they write about this theory of yours?

In contrast:

Mighty Mo's letter to Emperor Heraclius of Byzantium

In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

This letter is from Muhammad the slave of God and His Messenger to Heraclius, the ruler of the Byzantines.

Peace be upon him who follows the right path.

I am writing this invitation to call you to Islam.[2] If you become a Muslim you will be safe - and God will double your reward, but if you reject this invitation of Islam you will bear the sin of having misguided your subjects[3]. Thus do I urge you to heed the following:

“O People of the Scriptures! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.”

Muhammad, the Messenger of God[4]

The similar letter was sent to Khosrau II of Persia. Khosrau tore up the letter according to the muslim messenger that took it to him and this is recorded in the hadith:

So, when Khosrau read the letter he tore it up. Saeed ibn al-Musaiyab said, ‘The Prophet then invoked God to destroy and disperse Khosrau and his followers fully and with severity

The wars against both empires began by Mo's immediate successors. Are you saying the Muslims lied about their intentions?

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/ ... um-part-1/

[Rich]

I guess I have to do that thing where I repeat myslef three times and bold certain key words.

Amassing wealth is a basic, material, rational motive that has nothing to do with religion.

Acquiring more land and control of land is also a basic, material, rational motive.

Having more land and wealth means having power, which is another basic, material, rational motive that you are ignoring.

What an absurd proposition!

Wealth land and power, along with sex have everything to do with religion Religions are totally concerned with these things. Take Buddhism founded by a homosexual to cover up his lack of interest in women. Buddhism purports to renounce wealth, land, power and sex. So of course they said if we're going to help people renounce wealth, land, power and sex, then the Buddhist monasteries needs to amass land and power on a vast scale, seek out a rich laity and ally ourselves with powerful terror regimes. Oh and of course we'll have to turn a blind eye to monks raping children, because its all for the ultimate purpose of helping people renounce wealth, land, power and sex.

[Pants-of-dog]

@SolarCross

Please provide evidence that the earlyMuslim conquests had nothing to do with acquiring wealth, power, and land. Thanks.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

Why are you using Islamic sources as proof of Islamic motivations? There are no reports of such a letter sent to the Emperor (which would make no sense when you consider that early Muslims never conquered Constantinople so such a letter should still exist somewhere in it's official records) and there are no Sassanid sources which confirm that there was a letter sent to Khosrau II.

Based on how little evidence there is to corroborate the Islamic claim that letters were sent to both the Byzantine Emperor and Khosrau II, we can only assume that these are lies and only meant to rile up and motivate Mohammad's soldiers to do some conquering. This is especially clear when you consider that the Quran was oral at the time and these Surahs would be given in speeches. This does not represent any of their motivations at all since this is just propaganda.

Furthermore, Mohammad was not lying about his intentions (you have to realize that there is a distinction here since that would be implying that Muslims are all in on this which makes doesn't add up with everything we know about this period) since he never stated them. You don't state your intentions when you're a fucking religious and political leader since that is suicide. All he literally did was lie about some letters he sent to Khosrau and the Emperor which is just propaganda and not lying about their intentions.

If you think this is lying about intentions, you certainly don't know what intentions are.