[B0ycey]

What is the Left VS? Or real Left? Or new Left? They mean nothing except in the context of which they are used to the individual who uses them VS.

But but be clear, Marxism and Communism are two different ideologies but with they exact same end goal. Only the objective to reach the goal is different. So if Communism is "Left" then the real left doesn't need to be pro gun as a Communist doesn't need to advocate revolution to reach their ideological belief. They can just start a new political party and campaign their way to change after all.

[SolarCross]

If the "left" is whoever is subverting civilization at the current time, then by that token the orthodox marxists are no longer the TRUE left, just the old left. The old left are dead in the water and have been for 30 years or more, we all know what they are about from what they did in history and no one wants that. The neo-marxists/cultural marxists/new left/sjws are the TRUE left now exactly because their subversion attempts still have currency and represents a live threat to civilisation. I guess in a decade or two the SJW plague will have run its course and a new-new-left will emerge with a completely different subversion program.

[Victoribus Spolia]

What is the Left VS? Or real Left? Or new Left? They mean nothing except in the context of which they are used to the individual who uses them VS.

So apparently you haven't been reading anything either me or @Potemkin have been saying....

There is a tangible difference and evidence and argument has been provided explaining this difference.

But but be clear, Marxism and Communism are two different ideologies but with they exact same end goal. Only the objective to reach the goal is different. So if Communism is "Left" then the real left doesn't need to be pro gun as a Communist doesn't need to advocate revolution to reach their ideological belief. They can just start a new political party and campaign their way to change after all.

Nothing you said made any sense, you know that right?

[Victoribus Spolia]

If the "left" is whoever is subverting civilization at the current time, then by that token the orthodox marxists are no longer the TRUE left, just the old left. The old left are dead in the water and have been for 30 years or more, we all know what they are about from what they did in history and no one wants that. The neo-marxists/cultural marxists/new left/sjws are the TRUE left now exactly because their subversion attempts still have currency and represents a live threat to civilisation. I guess in a decade or two the SJW plague will have run its course and a new-new-left will emerge with a completely different subversion program.

How very Spenglerian of you.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Edit: Added Later.

That being said, @SolarCross,

We do have a disproportionate amount of "Old-Leftists" on this forum, which is not surprising because SJWS don't believe in giving platforms to their opponents for debate and so don't gravitate to forum life (especially a full-spectrum one like POFO) very easily.

Since this is the case, they need to be addressed and I think they do need to be held accountable in being more honest about their actual beliefs, especially in the several areas where they correspond with the populist movement behind guys like Trump (this is a bit amusing too, i might add).

[SolarCross]

How very Spenglerian of you.

Never heard of him until now. Should I be offended or complimented by the association?

[Victoribus Spolia]

Should I be offended or complimented by the association?

No, I named a son after him actually when I was still in the Alt. Right.

Author of the two volume masterpiece: "The Decline of The West."

Look him up. Great read for anyone on the Right.

[B0ycey]

If the "left" is whoever is subverting civilization at the current time, then by that token the orthodox marxists are no longer the TRUE left, just the old left. The old left are dead in the water and have been for 30 years or more, we all know what they are about from what they did in history and no one wants that. The neo-marxists/cultural marxists/new left/sjws are the TRUE left now exactly because their subversion attempts still have currency and represents a live threat to civilisation. I guess in a decade or two the SJW plague will have run its course and a new-new-left will emerge with a completely different subversion program.

Today "left wing" doesn't even mean Communism but social democrat. The term has always been useless anyway. It is a descriptive word that originated to mean the party who sits on the left side of the house that has morphed into meaning a party who looks after the interests of the lower class populous.

[B0ycey]

So apparently you haven't been reading anything either me or @Potemkin have been saying....

There is a tangible difference and evidence and argument has been provided explaining this difference.

I have read them and it is all bullshit. You both support guns because they interest your objectives. But that doesn't mean to achieve communism liberal guns laws are required. In fact, if you don't want to arm your enemy you are better off smuggling them in. Also a revolution doesn't need arms either. Marx didn't call for an armed coup btw. He asked for workers to unite. Downing tools would have also worked if every worker did it FYI

Nothing you said made any sense, you know that right?

Let me make it simple for you as you clearly need help.

All Marxist are Communists but not all Communists are Marxists. Do you still need help?

[SolarCross]

Today "left wing" doesn't even mean Communism but social democrat. The term has always been useless anyway. It is a descriptive word that originated to mean the party who sits on the left side of the house that has morphed into meaning a party who looks after the interests of the lower class populous.

The "left" doesn't necessarily care about the interests of the "lower class" populace. Historically leftists have fucked the "lower class" populous in the arse harder than anyone. Who do you think was dying by the megaton in the Great Leap Forward and Holodomor? Leftists just want to kill people, as many as possible, naturally that will include vast numbers of "lower class" people too. Don't believe the hype, leftists always lie.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Let me make it simple.for you are you clearly need help.

All Marxist are Communists but not all Communists are Marxists. Do you still need help?

Yes, please repeat a bit slower.....

I have read them and it is all bullshit.

By all means, enlighen me and @Potemkin with your superior knowledge of marxist orthodoxy and political theory.

You both support guns because they interest your objectives.

Yeah, that has nothing to do with anything we said. I didn't discuss why I support guns and Potemkin only argued as to why the working class should be armed according to the doctrines of revolutionary communism, which is the only orthodox marxian type of communism.

But that doesn't mean to achieve communism liberal guns laws are required.

That is how its supposed to happen actually yes, and is in fact how revolutions have always happened in the past.

In fact, if you don't want to arm your enemy you are better off smuggling them in.

What country has the most well-armed working class in the world? Per capita?

Also a revolution doesn't need arms either. Marx didn't call for an armed coup btw. He asked for workers to unite. Downing tools would have also worked if every worker did it FYI

You have misread Marx and don't understand his meaning. The revolution is an act of self-defense by which the workers attain what is rightfully theirs against the dictatorship of Bourgeois that seeks to oppress them and take it away; namely, the means of production.

The state has cops and soliders bank-rolled by billionaires that will shoot the workers before it allows them to organize en masse.

This is why the soldiers need to organize (unions) and be armed (pro-gun).

[B0ycey]

The "left" doesn't necessarily care about the interests of the "lower class" populace. Historically leftists have fucked the "lower class" populous in the arse harder than anyone. Who do you think was dying by the megaton in the Great Leap Forward and Holodomor? Leftists just want to kill people, as many as possible, naturally that will include vast numbers of "lower class" people too. Don't believe the hype, leftists always lie.

This whole thread and perhaps PoFo in general is why "Left" is a useless term today. We have a load of political ideologies with precise names and yet we describe everything by two terms "Right and Left". Although try saying this post in any political debate format away from PoFo and nobody would understand what you mean. The left do no want to kill people. Perhaps Stalinists and reactionists do. And Stalin was a Fascist.

[B0ycey]

You have misread Marx and don't understand his meaning. The revolution is an act of self-defense by which the workers attain what is rightfully theirs against the dictatorship of Bourgeois that seeks to oppress them and take it away; namely, the means of production.

I don't misunderstand Marx at all VS. He wrote a manifesto at the request of the Communist party and he was very vague in how Communism would be achieved because that was not the objective of the manifesto. It was one means for Communists to reach their objective where they would be more than happy to have got elected to reach the same goal FYI. Whether Pote or any other Marxist believes the revolution means an armed Coup doesn't change the fact Marx never said that and only called for workers to unite.

[SolarCross]

This whole thread and perhaps PoFo in general is why "Left" is a useless term today. We have a load of political ideologies with precise names and yet we describe everything by two terms "Right and Left". Although try saying this post in any political debate format away from PoFo and nobody would understand what you mean. The left do no want to kill people. Perhaps Stalinists and reactionists do. And Stalin was a Fascist.

Well I tend to agree that the left vs right terminology is pretty much useless. WW2 into the cold war was a three way fight between liberalism (US, UK), fascism (Italy, Germany) and communism (USSR). How does that fit on a left-right spectrum? If we put then USSR on the left and US on the right then surely fascism as communism lite should be somewhere left of centre? Yet weirdly we say fascism despite being a soft form of communism is the far-right and would probably fudge liberalism into the centre for not having anywhere else to put it... It doesn't add up.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Stalin was a Fascist.

Since @Potemkin is an actual Stalinst and identifies as a Stalinist on his profile.

Would you say he is a fascist then?

[B0ycey]

Since @Potemkin is an actual Stalinst and identifies as a Stalinist on his profile.

Would you say he is a fascist then?

If Pote wants a single dictator to run a state on ultra nationalism then yes he is a fascist. Although I do find it ironic that anyone who calls for the workers to unite for political change to serve their own interests idolises someone who kills millions of workers to serve their personal individualism.

[Victoribus Spolia]

If Pote wants a single dictator to run a state on ultra nationalism then yes he is a fascist. Although I do find it ironic that anyone who calls for the workers to unite for political change to serve their own interests support someone who kills millions of workers to serve their individualism.

You don't know much of the role of Stalin's position in marxist thought do you?

nor do you seem to understand much about the armed revolution in marxism, have you ever read Marx's Das Kapital? or the Proletarian Revolution by Lenin?

Whats your opinion of the Luxemburg v. Lenin Debate?

[B0ycey]

nor do you seem to understand much about the armed revolution in marxism, have you ever read Marx's Das Kapital? or the Proletarian Revolution by Lenin?

Yes!

Have you read Kapital? obviously NOT! Please enlighten me to the revolution text within in. And Leninism is not Marxism. So I do not need to confuse Soviet literature with Marxist philosophy.

Are you now calling Leninism the "real left?"

[Victoribus Spolia]

Are you now calling Leninism the "real left?"

Leninism as it evolved into Stalinism is probably the most consistent.

Have you read Kapital? obviously NOT!

His discussion of the internal contradictions in capitalism, taken in tandem with his other writings, make his position very clear.

Revolution is inevitable and its an armed revolution.

Not coincidentally, this has been the main interpretation of him by those who attempted to bring about his system in their nations.

[B0ycey]

His discussion of the internal contradictions in capitalism, taken in tandem with his other writings, make his position very clear.

Revolution is inevitable and its an armed revolution.

Not coincidentally, this has been the main interpretation of him by those who attempted to bring about his system in their nations.

Sure, internal contradictions causes a class divide and allows the Superstructure to progress. So what? Revolution does not need to be an armed coup and hasn't in the past. And whether it is inevitable Communism is the end result after Capitalism doesn't change the fact that Communism can be achieved in many other methods - including democratically.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Revolution does not need to be an armed coup and hasn't in the past. And whether it is inevitable Communism is the end result after Capitalism doesn't change the fact that Communism can be achieved in many other methods - including democratically.

Except it can't, even if the proletariat vote democratically to take the means of production, the bougeouis will attempt to maintain such violently (reaction) which results in the proletariat needing to defend themselves and their control of these means by force.

This is why all the largest historic strikes in the U.S. were armed, like the Homestead Strike and the West Virginia Coal Wars.

Please list all the socialist regimes that came about without violence, its a relatively small list compared to the revolutions done by an armed proletariat uprising.

The elites will do anything to maintain their control of the means of production, and wish to violently oppress the working class as much as necessary and keep them distracted with bread and circuses.

Marx even argues that this is why government came into existence (the post-feudal form), as a means of protecting the property rights of the merchant class AGAINST the more numerous workers. The reason representative government replaced monarchy and oligarchy in Marx is because the merchant class that became the real economic powers in nations, needed controls for their own interests, both against the aristocracy/monarchy and eventually against their own workers.

The owner class fears the working class because of its numbers, and DISARMING the working class is part of the elitist strategy to make them less of a threat (meanwhile they militarize the police state and increase its powers of surveillance and censorship).

You are simply wrong on this @B0ycey, dead wrong.

Fabianism (which is what you are advocating) is NOT orthodox marxism. Get over it.

Quit embarrassing yourself by making these claims and saying that Stalin was a fascist etc. You are making yourself sound dumb.