[XogGyux]

Interesting what kind of physician why is that different than a Doctor? I disagree. I don't view women in general as victims of man made "burden" they are strong and capable of handling themselves just fine. When I think of Kermit Gosnell who was also a physician I think of a cold blooded murderer not an "unethical guy". After all, that is what he was convicted of. How does that strengthen your argument again?

Doctor = Doctorate degree which could be a dentist, a veterinary, a physicist, a historian or PHD on spirituality of snowboarding.
I don't think u understood the previous post. It is society that puts the burden and not man (although metaphorically speaking we could use sperm ad a burden , but again not my point).
I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of men (some of them anyway).
Pointing a bad guy does not, in any way, shape or form makes your argument any stronger even if he was conviced of killin 7 billion people.
He was not convicted of murder when the women seek his help, those my point is still accurate, they sought help from an unethical shady guy AND THEN he was convicted of murder.
Like I said, he strengthens my point. This is what happens when society goes out of it's way to try to legislate what a woman has to do with her body. The sad story is, that if it was not him, some of those women might have tried something even more dangerous (do you know what hangers do?).

[Finfinder]

Doctor = Doctorate degree which could be a dentist, a veterinary, a physicist, a historian or PHD on spirituality of snowboarding.
I don't think u understood the previous post. It is society that puts the burden and not man (although metaphorically speaking we could use sperm ad a burden , but again not my point).
I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of men (some of them anyway).
Pointing a bad guy does not, in any way, shape or form makes your argument any stronger even if he was conviced of killin 7 billion people.
He was not convicted of murder when the women seek his help, those my point is still accurate, they sought help from an unethical shady guy AND THEN he was convicted of murder.
Like I said, he strengthens my point. This is what happens when society goes out of it's way to try to legislate what a woman has to do with her body. The sad story is, that if it was not him, some of those women might have tried something even more dangerous (do you know what hangers do?).

Doctor = Doctorate degree which could be a dentist, a veterinary, a physicist, a historian or PHD on spirituality of snowboarding.
.

I just find it odd why is so difficult for many to call the guy what he was. Even now you use "bad guy" and "unethical" I say this because it's obvious you are carefully selecting the words and what you say. I'm kind of getting bored with this. You could have just said what kind of doctor you were, but you chose not to, and in fact you laid out an argument that I was correct assuming you were a medical doctor. I have no idea what you are arguing here a physician is a doctor. So You don't want to answer what kind you are OK was curious you put it out there. Same way you answered question this entire discussion.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of men (some of them anyway).
Pointing a bad guy does not, in any way, shape or form makes your argument any stronger even if he was conviced of killin 7 billion people.
He was not convicted of murder when the women seek his help, those my point is still accurate, they sought help from an unethical shady guy AND THEN he was convicted of murder.
Like I said, he strengthens my point. This is what happens when society goes out of it's way to try to legislate what a woman has to do with her body. The sad story is, that if it was not him, some of those women might have tried something even more dangerous (do you know what hangers do?).

I don't understand what you are saying Gosnell didn't murder and the woman were victims before they got there. If the women didn't go to him he wouldn't have committed murders ? Are you defending the guy. I just don't buy your argument sorry or understand the angle. I'm exhausted lol Have a good one go save some lives thanks for keeping it respectful.

[WarmPotato]

The fact that people are trying to force women to give birth exactly where they think these women belong, is insane. When will the nanny state be satisfied?

[XogGyux]

I just find it odd why is so difficult for many to call the guy what he was. Even now you use "bad guy" and "unethical" I say this because it's obvious you are carefully selecting the words and what you say. I'm kind of getting bored with this. You could have just said what kind of doctor you were, but you chose not to, and in fact you laid out an argument that I was correct assuming you were a medical doctor. I have no idea what you are arguing here a physician is a doctor. So You don't want to answer what kind you are OK was curious you put it out there. Same way you answered question this entire discussion.

Terms matter and although I'm a human being and thus make mistakes. I try to be as specific as I can when debating with someone. Especially if it's online and a statement I might post unclear of its accuracy or, perhaps a confusing statement, might be read by many people and get confused, draw the wrong conclusions or even mistake my point entirely.
It is not by chance that I wrote the words that I did. I carefully thought of my answer and wrote it as such.
For instance, the guy that you brought as an example, may indeed be a convicted murder/felon/delinquent and whatever you might call him but at the time her "patients" sought his help, he was just plain unethical. That is, in no way shape or form diminishing his atrocities. In fact, as I said, he only serves to make my point stronger.
People like him flourish when the government seeks to restrict something against the majority (or even sometimes, a large minority) and this is what happened with prohibition era... Yes alcohol was illegal but the Mafia flourished. And that is what happens today with drug cartels, yes drugs are illegal but cartels and crime flourishes. All of these examples are as a result of the government trying to limit the freedom of its population, certainly against their will.

I don't understand what you are saying Gosnell didn't murder and the woman were victims before they got there. If the women didn't go to him he wouldn't have committed murders? Are you defending the guy.

No.
1. - He is a monster regardless of whether the women sought his help or not. He, in fact, was doing shady shit even before he got into the business of killing patients (e.g. basically selling out opioids).
2. - The women are put in this position because the burden the state puts on them by creating ever excessive restrictions that essentially make it harder and harder to have a safe, prompt abortion. Not to mention the ostracism and stigma. AKA "don't make it hard for them, so they don't get desperate when they have a 20week pregnancy and go to the shady shaman-doctor in the street that might, in fact, end up killing them".

Are you defending the guy.

Am I? Where have I said that he was a good guy or he didn't do what he was convicted of?
I told you, this guy actually makes my case STRONGER. The more evil he is, the stronger my case.
Please don't fall into the "Hittler fallacy" argument...

I just don't buy your argument sorry or understand the angle.

I know. Indoctrination strips brains out of logic.

I'm exhausted lol Have a good one go save some lives thanks for keeping it respectful.

Same to you. Cheers, have a good evening.

[Pants-of-dog]

Emotions have nothing to do with it. I am and surprised you didn't pull that response sooner this a POD 101 tactic. .

Ok in your mind you owned me on the Canada article How about I concede that, and we use Kermit Gosnell as an example then?

Who is Kermit Gosnell?

So your reply to me is going to be "is there a question here"? I'll save everyone from the 3 pages of you avoiding answering and putting play on words, doing your best Bill Clinton impression " depends on what is is" show and just leave it here. Feel free to comment or not.

I do have 1 question do you think they should extend "wet foot dry foot" in the US to fetuses that make it out alive or should the Cubans only get that right ?

I hope you understand why I am ignoring this.

[Finfinder]

Who is Kermit Gosnell?.

Really are you sure about that?

I hope you understand why I am ignoring this.

Of course I understand completely, because you are a very dishonest debater, not very credible.

You had your chance to offer your honest contributions to this subject but as I assumed correctly you deliberately avoided it. Unfortunate for you opinions are out there, etched on the web for eternity. It is very interesting that you claim to not know who Kermit Gosnell is when you so innocently chimed in on this thread, like a stalking Cheetah . You should know a great deal about the subject. Let me get you up to speed on Gosnell, since you don't know who he is.

The way I see it, it is a complicated mixture of different factors.

First of all, there is the profit motive. Gosnell made money by cutting corners and offering an unsafe and illegal practice. If the state provided abortions on demand, then this would never have been allowed to occur.

Second of all, there is the issue of certain types of abortion being illegal, which then forces women to seek the services of men like Gosnell. If abortion were legally provided to women at any stage of pregnancy, these women would not have had to seek the services of men like Gosnell.

I have no idea how any of this has anything to do with pro-choice advocacy. If the USA had the same policy as Canada (i.e. public healthcare will pay for an abortion at any stage of the pregnancy), this would never have happened.

Do conservative speakers at Ivy League schools have to worry about US terrorist groups who specifically target them? Abortion providers do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_%28USA%29

The Canadian gov't instead pays for the trip and the operation to see one of the few remaining US doctors who do late-term abortions.

I say "remaining" because some anti-abortion protestors seem to have targeted these doctors for murder.

Do you recall now? Turns out you have debated this exact subject in great detail.

This may refresh your innocent memory. Here is the link so all that is quoted can be read in full context. posting.php?mode=quote&f=42&p=14235515

I know that, but since you have not actually presented an argument, i thought I would trot something out. My position is consistent with the idea that people should not use each other's bodies without consent. This is why things like rape and slavery are not allowed anymore.

Would you support laws that say that men should be forced to donate blood and organs to their sick children? You are confusing two separate issues: the right of a person to not have their body used without consent, and the issue of viability.

The mother has the right to evict anyone at any time.

If the child is viable at the time, I have no problem with using taxpayer money to keep it alive in some sort of incubator or whatever..

So we do know you support full term abortions and have for a very long time.

OK then, lets use Kermit Gosnell as an example does this strengthen my point?
Emotions have nothing to do with it. I am and surprised you didn't pull that response sooner this a POD 101 tactic.

OK in your mind you owned me on the Canada article How about I concede that, and we use Kermit Gosnell as an example then?

So your reply to me is going to be "is there a question here"? I'll save everyone from the 3 pages of you avoiding answering and putting play on words, doing your best Bill Clinton impression " depends on what is is" show and just leave it here. Feel free to comment or not.

I do have 1 question do you think they should extend "wet foot dry foot" in the US to fetuses that make it out alive or should the Cubans only get that right ?

I was right again vintage POD 101 some things never change. From the same Gosnell conversation.

While I am glad that you are so in touch with your feelings that you are comfortable sharing them, I do not think we should base abortion policy on your emotions.

Are you a mind reader?

I can't think of any way for you to be sure of the motives of others.

Please present evidence that the regulatory body in charge of private health clinics in Gosnell's jurisdiction is staffed primarily by pro-choice advocates. Thank you.

[Pants-of-dog]

Really are you sure about that?

Yes, I am sure that I did not know the name of every person I have ever discussed on these boards.

Of course I understand completely, because you are a very dishonest debater, not very credible.

You had your chance to offer your honest contributions to this subject but as I assumed correctly you deliberately avoided it. Unfortunate for you opinions are out there, etched on the web for eternity. It is very interesting that you claim to not know who Kermit Gosnell is when you so innocently chimed in on this thread, like a stalking Cheetah . You should know a great deal about the subject. Let me get you up to speed on Gosnell, since you don't know who he is.

Calling people liars is a rule violation, by the way.

If you wish to assume I am lying and have not simply forgotten this person, feel free. It has no bearing on my argument.

Do you recall now? Turns out you have debated this exact subject in great detail.

This may refresh your innocent memory. Here is the link so all that is quoted can be read in full context. posting.php?mode=quote&f=42&p=14235515

Yes, that post I made five years ago.

Apparently, you think I should be able to recall that exact conversation.

So we do know you support full term abortions and have for a very long time.

Yes, I have always supported a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy at any time during the pregnancy.

Can you point to anything I said five years ago that is wrong?

I was right again vintage POD 101 some things never change. From the same Gosnell conversation.

I stand by what I said five years ago in that thread.

And you are invited to refute or challenge it if you wish.

But other than mistakenly calling me a liar, you have not made any actual argument.

[XogGyux]

Yes, I am sure that I did not know the name of every person I have ever discussed on these boards.



Calling people liars is a rule violation, by the way.

If you wish to assume I am lying and have not simply forgotten this person, feel free. It has no bearing on my argument.



Yes, that post I made five years ago.

Apparently, you think I should be able to recall that exact conversation.



Yes, I have always supported a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy at any time during the pregnancy.

Can you point to anything I said five years ago that is wrong?



I stand by what I said five years ago in that thread.

And you are invited to refute or challenge it if you wish.

But other than mistakenly calling me a liar, you have not made any actual argument.

Not to mention that if you had said something to the opposite in the past, people ARE allowed to change their minds. In fact, that is what reasonable people are expected to do if they are presented reasonable evidence that they are wrong (which is perfectly normal and common).

The guy has not presented any evidence or counterargument to the points that you, and I, have brought up. I am not surprised that now he goes for an attack of character instead of the argument.

[Finfinder]

Yes, I am sure that I did not know the name of every person I have ever discussed on these boards.

So you know now ?
It was only the biggest news story of the year, reported on heavily in Canada as well and coincidentally enough there is a major motion picture about Kermit Gosnell playing in the movie theaters as we speak. We are finding out you are not that well informed, can add that to the list of what we have learned here.

Calling people liars is a rule violation, by the way.

Good thing I didn't use that word and criticising the moderators is one as well so be careful.

If you wish to assume I am lying and have not simply forgotten this person, feel free. It has no bearing on my argument.

I never used that word why are you insisting to put words on my keyboard. It has every bearing on this debate for obvious reasons that everyone knows seemingly, except you. You chimed in on this discussion I was already involved in it. Sometimes when you try to troll people it backfires badly.

Apparently, you think I should be able to recall that exact conversation.

Nope not at all just who Kermit Gosnell is. Again trying to put words in my mouth never said that. I was just refreshing your memory even put the entire link so context wouldn't be lost. Did it help?

Yes, that post I made five years ago.

Thanks for confirming that. Good thing for you this isn't a senate confirmation or some Me Too movement situation.

I stand by what I said five years ago in that thread.And you are invited to refute or challenge it if you wish.But other than mistakenly calling me a liar, you have not made any actual argument.

Putting words on others keyboard again that they did not type isn't an argument as well. I have done more than make an argument and for obvious reason why would I waste my time. Have a good day.

Not to mention that if you had said something to the opposite in the past, people ARE allowed to change their minds. In fact, that is what reasonable people are expected to do if they are presented reasonable evidence that they are wrong (which is perfectly normal and common).
.

Its the convenience on when and how they do it. Just like you offering on this thread to be a Doctor / physcian and now refuse to answer answer what kind. I'm a French Model take my word for its the internet.

The guy has not presented any evidence or counterargument to the points that you, and I, have brought up. I am not surprised that now he goes for an attack of character instead of the argument.

What are you talking about too this point we are having a respectful open discussion, there is no rules nor end results or trophy. POD chimed in on the discussion. I did not attack his character I reminded him of something he allegedly forgot. You were the one who made the teachable point of choosing words carefully. Another lesson.... what we type here is permanent.

[Pants-of-dog]

So you know now ?
It was only the biggest news story of the year, reported on heavily in Canada as well and coincidentally enough there is a major motion picture about Kermit Gosnell playing in the movie theaters as we speak. We are finding out you are not that well informed, can add that to the list of what we have learned here.

Good thing I didn't use that word and criticising the moderators is one as well so be careful.

I never used that word why are you insisting to put words on my keyboard. It has every bearing on this debate for obvious reasons that everyone knows seemingly, except you. You chimed in on this discussion I was already involved in it. Sometimes when you try to troll people it backfires badly.

Nope not at all just who Kermit Gosnell is. Again trying to put words in my mouth never said that. I was just refreshing your memory even put the entire link so context wouldn't be lost. Did it help?

Thanks for confirming that. Good thing for you this isn't a senate confirmation or some Me Too movement situation.

Putting words on others keyboard again that they did not type isn't an argument as well. I have done more than make an argument and for obvious reason why would I waste my time. Have a good day.

So what is your argument?

[Nonsense]

In the U.K, giving birth at home was the default practice, as far as my memory recalls, up until the late 1950's.


A midwifery nurse would come around at regular intervals before,during & long after birth well into late infancy.

The NHS used to do a very good job for children in it's early days & with significantly less resources than are available now.

Too many unnecessary caesarean procedures within hospitals take place nowadays, general female health is not served by poor dietary lifestyles & becoming pregnant.

Natural childbirth in the west is at an all time low, everyone needs to reflect on current health trends & the consequences for ourselves.

[XogGyux]

Its the convenience on when and how they do it. Just like you offering on this thread to be a Doctor / physcian and now refuse to answer answer what kind. I'm a French Model take my word for its the internet.

What I am or am not should have no bearing on your opinion or thinking. You, and everyone else can, and should, research the topics and analyze the data on their own and if they want some expert opinion as in to help understand the data so be it. But ultimately, taking someone's word for it, is by far the shittiest way to form opinions and thoughts. That's why cults and religion manage to get devout followers because they are taught to blindly follow someone's opinion without question. I not only disagree with that model but also advice against it.
Actually believing you are a French model has no impact on my worldview, understanding of my surroundings or even my own life and as such, I am willing to accept it on face value.

What are you talking about too this point we are having a respectful open discussion, there is no rules nor end results or trophy.

Actually, we have not had much of a discussion at all. I have (and POD has on its own) put forth multiple examples to illustrate how this is not a "mothers right vs baby's right" and just a "woman's right to their own body) situation. You keep trying to insert a baby (sometimes even calling a fetus a baby on purpose despite me correcting you) as to elicit an emotional override of the logical decision.