[Pants-of-dog]

I would like @SolarCross to answer JohnRawls’ question.

[SolarCross]

Okay, what prompted your perception of their being an outer and inner party? Assuming that inner part as much as i understand are sociopaths that take advantage of the outer party who are basically sheep and repeat the same things over and over?

Yeah this is a more or less accurate way to distinguish the one from the other. However I think the inner party (if any still exist) are actually far worse than mere sociopaths but I will get to that a bit later.

Clearly most commies lack any sentience or basic intelligence, they have been told a story that was crafted to exploit their deficiencies in intellect and their emotional vulnerabilities and they act on it from then on uncritically. This is the outer party. There is no doubt about the existence of the outer party because it is on pofo, revleft etc and it is in the history books. We can all see it. The question only is there really an Inner party as Orwell suspected which is using these people cynically? Or did they just do this to themselves?

I could point by way of analogy to other cults such as the small new ones like Scientology or large old ones like Islam and show that the Inner / Outer party dichotomy exists for other cults, so why not communism? Sure, but of course while that shows it is possible that is not in itself proof that communism follows the same pattern.

I think the issue I am coming up against is that the commies I see do not appear intelligent enough to craft the communist ideology. The communist ideology is pure garbage so that itself suggests the outer party could have crafted it but it is garbage crafted in an very, very devious way. The more I puzzle over this the more designed it looks for the purpose of destroying or at least setting back human civilisation.

Every kooky thing they all start bleating in unison is explicitly designed to destroy or corrode some pillar of human civilisation. Human civilisation depends on trade, trade depends on money, so they say money is evil and we should get rid of it. Well rounded human beings need a mother and a father both to look after them when they are young. So they say the family is evil and we should get rid of it. The same goes for: freedom of speech, check of balances in government, etc etc.

Every time they get even the slightest bit of influence or power they turn everything to shit. See? If they were just stupid they could not perform that badly. There must be some absolutely competent malevolence working through them. This is what Orwell was pointing to in 1984 with the "Inner Party". I think I would go further than Orwell, because to me the malevolence is so comprehensively misanthropic that it does not seem to be of human origin.

Orwell saw the competent malevolence operating behind the apparent lunacy of the outer party and assumes it must be from human devious sociopaths. That might be but I think even human sociopaths must have some basic self-interest in the general well-being of the species. A sociopath does not care about others but they do care about their own self-interest at least. How well will the sociopaths fare if all of human civilisation collapses? Yet that appears to be the deliberate aim of the Inner Party.

I could speculate what they may be but I do not really know at this point.

[JohnRawls]

Yeah this is a more or less accurate way to distinguish the one from the other. However I think the inner party (if any still exist) are actually far worse than mere sociopaths but I will get to that a bit later.

Clearly most commies lack any sentience or basic intelligence, they have been told a story that was crafted to exploit their deficiencies in intellect and their emotional vulnerabilities and they act on it from then on uncritically. This is the outer party. There is no doubt about the existence of the outer party because it is on pofo, revleft etc and it is in the history books. We can all see it. The question only is there really an Inner party as Orwell suspected which is using these people cynically? Or did they just do this to themselves?

I could point by way of analogy to other cults such as the small new ones like Scientology or large old ones like Islam and show that the Inner / Outer party dichotomy exists for other cults, so why not communism? Sure, but of course while that shows it is possible that is not in itself proof that communism follows the same pattern.

I think the issue I am coming up against is that the commies I see do not appear intelligent enough to craft the communist ideology. The communist ideology is pure garbage so that itself suggests the outer party could have crafted it but it is garbage crafted in an very, very devious way. The more I puzzle over this the more designed it looks for the purpose of destroying or at least setting back human civilisation.

Every kooky thing they all start bleating in unison is explicitly designed to destroy or corrode some pillar of human civilisation. Human civilisation depends on trade, trade depends on money, so they say money is evil and we should get rid of it. Well rounded human beings need a mother and a father both to look after them when they are young. So they say the family is evil and we should get rid of it. The same goes for: freedom of speech, check of balances in government, etc etc.

Every time they get even the slightest bit of influence or power they turn everything to shit. See? If they were just stupid they could not perform that badly. There must be some absolutely competent malevolence working through them. This is what Orwell was pointing to in 1984 with the "Inner Party". I think I would go further than Orwell, because to me the malevolence is so comprehensively misanthropic that it does not seem to be of human origin.

Orwell saw the competent malevolence operating behind the apparent lunacy of the outer party and assumes it must be from human devious sociopaths. That might be but I think even human sociopaths must have some basic self-interest in the general well-being of the species. A sociopath does not care about others but they do care about their own self-interest at least. How well will the sociopaths fare if all of human civilisation collapses? Yet that appears to be the deliberate aim of the Inner Party.

I could speculate what they may be but I do not really know at this point.

Cool, as i said. You are using 2020 morality and experiences on an ideology whos main ideas were developed in the start or middle of the 20th century. The ideas of communism and socialism are not bad per se, their implementation is though. It has deficiencies that are evident after a long period of time. But this doesn't mean that the ideology is bullshit nor that the implementation can't be improved. Social democracy for example, is mostly capitalist and liberal but uses elements of Socialism. So that path works.

Also your general view disregard the things that you use right now that came out of socialism and which you take for granted: pre-school education, school education, healthcare, public goods, insurance(both private and public) etc etc There are good things that come out of socialism and communism but the ideology as a whole can't be implemented in to real life as of yet in a successful form. As merger of capitalism+socialism+liberalism seem to be very effecient if you look at northern Europe as an example. That you can't deny.

[SolarCross]

Cool, as i said. You are using 2020 morality and experiences on an ideology whos main ideas were developed in the start or middle of the 20th century. The ideas of communism and socialism are not bad per se, their implementation is though. It has deficiencies that are evident after a long period of time. But this doesn't mean that the ideology is bullshit nor that the implementation can't be improved. Social democracy for example, is mostly capitalist and liberal but uses elements of Socialism. So that path works.

Also your general view disregard the things that you use right now that came out of socialism and which you take for granted: pre-school education, school education, healthcare, public goods, insurance(both private and public) etc etc There are good things that come out of socialism and communism but the ideology as a whole can't be implemented in to real life as of yet in a successful form. As merger of capitalism+socialism+liberalism seem to be very effecient if you look at northern Europe as an example. That you can't deny.

None of those things come from socialism. Great another retarded outer party drone.

[Pants-of-dog]

@JohnRawls

As you can see, @SolarCross‘s criticisms are not based on reality.

[SolarCross]

@Pants-of-dog
Are you inner party or outer?

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog
Are you inner party or outer?

This is an example of a false dichotomy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

[SolarCross]

This is an example of a false dichotomy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

You are claiming that there is no Inner Party?

[Pants-of-dog]

You are claiming that there is no Inner Party?

No.

I am pointing out that the question is based on false premises, including the false idea that this “inner patty/outer party” idea is real.

[SolarCross]

No.

I am pointing out that the question is based on false premises, including the false idea that this “inner patty/outer party” idea is real.

Commies exist, so there is at least an "outer party". Outer party just means the visible party that everyone can see. There is no false premise, just the question as to whether there is only an outer party or whether there is also an inner party which is less visible with a distinctly different agenda.

[Pants-of-dog]

@SolarCross

No.

Your ideas about inner and outer parties are not based on reality and are not applicable to all socialists, even if they are appropriate for one instance.

[SolarCross]

@SolarCross

No.

Your ideas about inner and outer parties are not based on reality and are not applicable to all socialists, even if they are appropriate for one instance.

That is your assertion, but you do lie a lot, so I am not taking anything from you on faith.

[Political Interest]

The communists naturally had some cynicism about their ideology otherwise they would not have been able to apply it in the real world.

Marxism-Leninism was a vision. They had faith in the end vision that their socialist states could become or were in many ways superior to Western systems. Where there were shortcomings these were not ignored. The party and politburo knew very well about the problems they faced.

Cynicism and idealism don't always contradict each other. In many ways a true idealist is always a cynic.

[Sivad]

I think I would go further than Orwell, because to me the malevolence is so comprehensively misanthropic that it does not seem to be of human origin.



I could speculate what they may be but I do not really know at this point.

Egregore (also egregor) is an occult concept representing a "thoughtform" or "collective group mind", an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people. The symbiotic relationship between an egregore and its group has been compared to the more recent, non-occult concepts of the corporation (as a legal entity) and the meme.



“Then it is in me too, the psychotic streak. A psychotic world we live in, the madmen are in power. How long have we known this? Faced this? And- how many of us do know it? Not lots. Perhaps if you know you are insane then you are not insane. Or you are becoming sane, finally waking up. I suppose only a few are aware of all of this. Isolated persons here and there. But the broad masses… What do they think? All these hundreds of thousands in this city, here. Do they imagine that they live in a sane world? Or do they guess, glimpse the truth…?

But he thought, what does it mean, insane? A legal definition. What do I mean? I feel it, see it, but what is it? He thought, it is something they do, something they are. It is their unconsciousness. Their lack of knowledge about others. Their not being aware of what they do to others, the destruction they have caused and are causing, No, he thought, that isn’t it. I don’t know; I sense it, intuit it. But– they are purposelessly cruel…is that it? No. God, he thought. I can’t find it, make it clear. Do they ignore parts of reality? Yes, but it is more. It is their plans. Yes, their plans. The conquering of the planets. Something frenzied and demented, as was their conquering of Africa, and before that, Europe and Asia.

Their view, it is cosmic. Not of a man here, a child there, but an abstraction: race, land. volk. land. Blut. Ehre. Not of honorable men but of Ehre itself, honor; the abstract is real, the actual is invisible to them. Die Gute, but not good men, this good man. It is their sense of space and time. They see through the here, the now, into the vast black deep beyond, the unchanging. And that is fatal to life. Because eventually there will be no life; here was once only the dust particles in space, the hot hydrogen gases, nothing more, and it will come again. This is an interval, ein Augenblick. The cosmic process is hurrying on, crushing life back into granite and methane, the wheel turns for all life. It is all temporary. And they- these madmen- respond to the granite, the dust, the longing of the inanimate, they want to aid nature.

And, he thought, I know why. They want to be the agents, not the victims of history. They identify with God’s power and believe they are godlike. This is their basic madness. They are overcome by some archetype, their egos have expanded psychotically so that they cannot tell where they begin and the godhead leaves off. It is not hubris, not pride, it is inflation of the ego to its ultimate-confusion between him who worships and that which is worshiped.”



Dick was talking about the brown fascists but it applies just as much to the red fascists.

[Pants-of-dog]

That is your assertion, but you do lie a lot, so I am not taking anything from you on faith.

If I am lying, provide evidence that your unrealistic dichotomy is applicable to all socialist movements.

[Sivad]

For the past 20 years, Natalia Goroviya has labored quietly behind the inconspicuous facade of 12 Ilyinka St. as guardian of some of communism`s deepest, darkest secrets.

Beneath huge portraits of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin in an ornate second-floor reading room, Goroviya faithfully kept track of the 30 million documents held in the central archives of the Soviet Communist Party.

[...]

''The Communist Party was not a public organization like a party should be,'' said Goroviya, who runs the reading room. ''It was a secret society, so dealing with these archives has to be approached as in dealing with state secrets.''

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html

[SolarCross]

Egregore (also egregor) is an occult concept representing a "thoughtform" or "collective group mind", an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people. The symbiotic relationship between an egregore and its group has been compared to the more recent, non-occult concepts of the corporation (as a legal entity) and the meme.

That is a pretty interesting candidate for the Inner Party. Some sort of mental parasite that is neither really a god because it depends on the existence of the human substrate for its own existence and not really just an idea because it has a life and agenda of its own distinct from the interests of its host.

The human brain is pretty big, who knows what secret things are haunting its depths?

[JohnRawls]

None of those things come from socialism. Great another retarded outer party drone.

I am not a socialist you know. Most of the lefties on here probably will chuckle at the though of a class traitor like me being part of their movement. (Both the old timers and the more younger ones)

[Pants-of-dog]

I am not a socialist you know. Most of the lefties on here probably will chuckle at the though of a class traitor like me being part of their movement. (Both the old timers and the more younger ones)

If I recall correctly, you are Estonian, are you not?

[JohnRawls]

If I recall correctly, you are Estonian, are you not?

Yes.