Minneapolis City Council Members Vote to Dismantle/Defund Its Police Department - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Is it a good idea to defund, dismantle and abolish police departments?

Absolutely! Police are meant as a form of social control rather than a means of law, order and justice. Might as well take the savings and use it for more effective alternatives to public safety.
10
45%
No, police departments do not need to be dismantled or abolished but some reforms of the police are needed. It would be dangerous to defund the police and cause more lawlessness in society.
8
36%
The police departments don't need any reform at all as its stands, the police are doing a fine job and don't need to be abolished at all. People are being hysterical and over-reacting.
3
14%
Other (Explain).
1
5%
#15098454
So the city of Minneapolis in the state of Minnesota in the U.S. has voted to dismantle and defund its police department. It's reasoning is the money is needed for mental health services for resident and a new model of public safety to actually keep it's city residents safe. They state, the police doesn't make their community feel safe. That alternatives to public safety is needed instead of the police.



Meanwhile the Mayor of Minneapolis does not support the movement to defund police:



So, is it a good idea to abolish or defund the police? Or is this an extreme position?
#15098463
I think it's amazing. Good for them. Police in the UK do not carry weapons, the UK had the biggest issue of hooliganism in the world, things changed. They will change in the US too. They will establish a new type of police with a new set of rules. Organisational change takes decades and in most cases it never actually succeeds in rotten organisations.
#15098467
It's worth it as an experiment, as long as my city doesn't do it first. We'll see if the new police are any better than the old police. Likely not by much. You need people to make arrests, and power corrupts.
#15098610
@noemon @AFAIK @Unthinking Majority

Origins of the Police

Initially, I voted for the second option of "reforming" the police. However, after reading up on the history of the police here in the United States from a reliable source the origins of the police are pretty interesting. According to Dr. Gary Potter of Eastern Kentucky University, the origins of the police are rooted in social control and not in response to any sort of "crime wave" anywhere (Dr. Gary Potter, 2013) . In the Northeastern U.S. the merchants wanted the police to ensure an "orderly work force" as well as ensuring a "good environment to conduct business" and they sought to transfer the cost from them (the merchants in private industry) to the taxpayers or the state (Dr. Gary Potter, 2013) .

In the Southern U.S. the origins of the police is rooted in the slave patrol (Dr. Gary Potter, 2013) . They were also used as an organized form of terror against African American slaves to deter slave revolts (Dr. Gary Potter, 2013) . Of course, most people also know that the slave patrol was used to capture run-away slaves too and return them to the plantations in the Southern United States. This police force was used to meat out discipline to slaves outside of law when they broke plantation rules (Dr. Gary Potter, 2013) . Given that slaves didn't have rights, such discipline and harsh punishment could be meated out to these slaves without legal repercussions to the "slave patrol" or "police" or to slave owners.

How Would Serious Crime Be Dealt with in the Absence of a Police Force?

However, that all being said, something to consider is even if you defund police and transfer money over to mental health and social programs to invest in the community; there will still be things like murder. Murder isn't going to stop just as some criminal activity isn't going to stop just because you defund the police. How would those who support defunding and dismantling the police propose to deal with those particular problems? You can't just have mob justice either or how things were in the "wild west" where mobs angry over a murder or a particular crime would lynch a murder suspect (these lynchings were of white murder suspects and not just racist lynchings of blacks). People do have a right to a fair trial and to be found guilty before they are legally punished.



Reference-

Dr. Gary Potter. (2013, June 25). The history of policing in the United States, Part 1 | Police studies online | Eastern Kentucky University. Retrieved June 8, 2020, from https://plsonline.eku.edu/insidelook/hi ... tes-part-1
#15098617
AFAIK wrote:Yes- Most departments are too far gone for reform to be worth the effort.


They're just going to make new police though. You need people to enforce laws, otherwise you have no laws, then you have Somalia.

Maybe it's worth firing all the cops and writing up new rules and accountability. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
#15098632
Oxymoron wrote:Police departments are fine the way they are, perhaps slight changes to training and hiring practices should be discussed.
Primarily I think the best we can do is eliminate all Public worker unions. That will give us better Police, better teachers and better public servants.


I really don't think police departments are fine the way they are. They're filled with sacks of shit who get away with doing horrible things.
#15098643
Donna wrote:It lays off all of the officers in one fell swoop, rendering the union obsolete.

Why fire the officers? They should have a right to keep their jobs, but the Union that is easy to remove without having to restart from scratch.
I get it, its much easier to finalize the Marxist movement without an armed force stopping you...but alas that wont happen.
#15098646
Oxymoron wrote:Why fire the officers? They should have a right to keep their jobs, but the Union that is easy to remove without having to restart from scratch.
I get it, its much easier to finalize the Marxist movement without an armed force stopping you...but alas that wont happen.


Because if you just try to abolish the union without abolishing the department, the police can still strike and resist the process. In that situation are you going to allow cops to blackball the entire community? No, you lay them all off.

It's not even Marxism technically. It's probably more in the tradition of localist American liberty. But I guess because it's black self-determination it must be Bolshevism running amok. :roll:
#15098736
One thing this whole incident with George Floyd has brought to light for me is the power of the police unions. I am pro-union myself when it comes to workers. However, it does seem like police unions are standing behind officers who have engaged in misconduct despite the fact their misconduct is caught on video tape for all to see. But on the other hand, without unions, you are more likely to have unsafe working conditions and to be under-paid by employers. Unions, in our history, also played an important role in ensuring a strong middle class. I guess there is no easy solution here.

Marshall Cohen, Sara Murray, David Shortell, Katelyn Polantz and Mark Morales of CNN wrote:A crowd of police officers in Philadelphia gathered outside their local union headquarters on Monday to show their support for one of their own -- a staff inspector facing assault charges after allegedly beating a college student at an anti-racism protest last week.

Like all criminal defendants, Philadelphia Police Staff Inspector Joseph Bologna is innocent until proven guilty. But it seemed like the crowd of more than 100 applauding officers already made up their minds, despite viral footage of Bologna hitting the student in the back of the head with a metal baton, sending him to the hospital.

Following the rally, the union that represents Bologna issued a statement, saying it "will not stand-by and watch Inspector Bologna get railroaded."
As public opinion shifts on issues of police violence and racial discrimination, and cities begin to rethink their approach to law enforcement, powerful police unions across the country are digging in, and preparing for a once-in-a-generation showdown over policing.

The flashpoint has been seemingly brewing for years and has flared in intensity with each high-profile police killing involving an African American. Elected officials, facing more pressure than ever after last month's police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, are pledging to take action.

"Let me be clear, we're going after the police union," Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said Monday on ABC's Good Morning America, after members of the city council said they wanted to go even further and dismantle the local police department to pursue other models of policing.

But that might be easier said than done. Police unions in the US wield significant power and enjoy higher membership rates than many other unions, which have declined in recent years. Government officials and labor experts also tell CNN that police union contracts often make it tougher to remove officers that have been flagged for misconduct -- a key roadblock to reform.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics ... index.html
#15098823
Oxymoron wrote:I get it, its much easier to finalize the Marxist movement without an armed force stopping you...but alas that wont happen.

Yes, you finally got it. BLM wants to speed up their Marxist agenda.
To do that, they also need to get rid of the Trump of God.
#15098878
Donna wrote:Because if you just try to abolish the union without abolishing the department, the police can still strike and resist the process. In that situation are you going to allow cops to blackball the entire community? No, you lay them all off.

It's not even Marxism technically. It's probably more in the tradition of localist American liberty. But I guess because it's black self-determination it must be Bolshevism running amok. :roll:


Police cannot strike, its illegal.
Self determination? Please show me how the majority of the people living in that city support such a move, and you might have a point....
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