[Rugoz]

We should keep mentally ill people away from children, though, shouldn't we?

LoL, a large share of the population is mentally ill. In therapy and/or on antidepressants. That doesn't mean they're a threat to children .

If anything, a happy transgender person is preferable to all of them.

[Fasces]

The problem is with giving useless medication that is actually harmful and feeding into delusions such as men can be women and vice-versa, if they feel that way. I know you and others think that doing that is NICE and BEING KIND but it actually is the opposite of these things, fundamentally, it is lying..and lying is not good.

You say the harm is medication, but we both know that isn't it.

You oppose changing gender on licenses or government forms, which is not a form of harmful medication and easily reversible if they do 'grow out of it'. Of using a bathroom, which is not a form of harmful medication and easily reversible if they 'grow out of it'. Of using proper pronouns, which isn't a form of harmful medication and easily reversible when you 'grow out of it'. There are all sorts of non-medical forms of gender affirming care - and to be clear, schools or sports leagues aren't prescribing or administering medication when providing GAC for their students - but you oppose them nonetheless.

[JohnRawls]

Slightly I suppose. Don't care if they don't participate in female sports and don't spread the ideology in schools/publicly. Everyone has a right to accept it or not accept it and to keep their opinions to themselves. You can be trans and not interfere with other peoples lives. The same way as people can be anti-trans but also keep to themselves. Just be yourself but without getting in to other peoples lives.

Technically the same as I treat straight or gay people I guess. The only exception is sports so a place where they have an illegal advantage against like other females who don't have that advantage.

[skinster]

You say the harm is medication, but we both know that isn't it.

You oppose changing gender on licenses or government forms, which is not a form of harmful medication and easily reversible if they do 'grow out of it'. Of using a bathroom, which is not a form of harmful medication and easily reversible if they 'grow out of it'. Of using proper pronouns, which isn't a form of harmful medication and easily reversible when you 'grow out of it'. There are all sorts of non-medical forms of gender affirming care - and to be clear, schools or sports leagues aren't prescribing or administering medication when providing GAC for their students - but you oppose them nonetheless.

Yes, I oppose lying and the invasion of women's spaces too, I already made that clear. And I oppose harmful and useless meds for impressionable children going through puberty that sterilise them and cause harm. You don't seem to want to address that part though. All you're doing is virtue-signalling for what is basically is a fad/religion and you don't want to confront that for some reason. You're into harming children, invading women's spaces and you're into lying about the reality of our nature because you think it makes you look good and it's you BEING KIND, but actually it just makes you 1) a liar 2) a misogynist and 3) a child-abuser. But you don't want to admit to any of these things.

[Rugoz]

Transphobia is a repeat of homophobia.

Gays are mentally ill, we can't have them around children!

If we tolerate homosexuality, our children will turn gay!

Same garbage.

[Godstud]

Transphobia is a repeat of homophobia.

False. It is not. Homosexuality is a sexual preference whereas Transgenderism, the ideology, is about belief and delusion.

Gays are mentally ill, we can't have them around children!

No one ever said that.

If we tolerate homosexuality, our children will turn gay!

Nope. Sorry, but comparing the transgender ideology to homosexuality is dishonest and truly idiotic.

Homosexuals were never trying to press their preferences onto children.

[Rugoz]

False. It is not. Homosexuality is a sexual preference whereas Transgenderism, the ideology, is about belief and delusion.

Homosexuality was seen as a delusion and sickness. Transgender is a sex preference. More difficult to achieve, but not impossible.

No one ever said that.

Of course they said it.

Nope. Sorry, but comparing the transgender ideology to homosexuality is dishonest and truly idiotic.

Homosexuals were never trying to press their preferences onto children.

Gay parades, gay culture. Sexual education discussing homosexuality in schools.

Everything conservatives at the time hated, and now hate about transgenderism.

[Godstud]

Transgender is a sex preference.

False. It's a delusion. No matter how hard you try, a man can't be a woman or vice versa, except cosmetically.

Sexual education discussing homosexuality in schools.

No. They did not discuss it in schools. It wasn't relevant to sex education. Why are you so dishonest?

Everything conservatives at the time hated, and now hate about transgenderism.

A gender identity ideology aimed at children and based on lies. Why would people be against that, I wonder? Are for children, who are not old enough to get a tattoo, make life-altering decisions to castrate, sterilize, and mutilate their bodies? That is the part that "conservatives" are against. can you tell me what's wrong with this or is this against your cultist rhetoric? Are you capable of critical thinking, or are you too brainwashed?

[Rugoz]

False. It's a delusion. No matter how hard you try, a man can't be a woman or vice versa, except cosmetically.

Cosmetically might be good enough. Hormones have additional effects.

No. They did not discuss it in schools. It wasn't relevant to sex education. Why are you so dishonest?

Obviously not at the time when you went to school.

A gender identity ideology aimed at children and based on lies. Why would people be against that, I wonder? Are for children, who are not old enough to get a tattoo, make life-altering decisions to castrate, sterilize, and mutilate their bodies? That is the part that "conservatives" are against. can you tell me what's wrong with this or is this against your cultist rhetoric? Are you capable of critical thinking, or are you too brainwashed?

Children should not make such a decision on their own, and doctors/psychologists should not make it lightly. Banning gender affirmation surgery for adolescents is simply dumb though. The procedure has been performed for decades, and nobody gave a shit.

[Godstud]

Children should not make such a decision on their own, and doctors/psychologists should not make it lightly. Children should not be making any decision.

There is a reason why you cannot get a tattoo until 18. That's because it is a permanent alteration. Nothing is more permanent that puberty blockers and surgeries. Psychiatrists are the only people who should be involved in therapy and this should not to "affirm" someone's delusions. That's not what therapy is, That's indoctrination.

Banning gender affirmation surgery for adolescents is simply dumb though.

No. It's not. Their gender is the one they were born with. Anything more is gender NON-affirming care. If you are born with male genitalia and XY chromosomes, then you are male(exceptions are just that, and your gender that is that of a man).

They should have therapy, since most of the problems come from mental illness other than gender dysphoria, but no alterations should be possible until they are adults and can make informed consent. It should not be up to parents or doctors to make permanent alterations and the recent trend of people de-transitioning is telling.

The argument regarding suicide reduction is an ideological lie and they've found that transitioning does not reduce suicides amongst trans people.

The procedure has been performed for decades, and nobody gave a shit.

False. This has not been done for decades. That's a outright LIE. There's a reason why the Sweden recently change it's policies on this. It was NOT done on children for decades, either.

Sweden puts brakes on treatments for trans minors
Sweden decided in February 2022 to halt hormone therapy for minors except in very rare cases, and in December, the National Board of Health and Welfare said mastectomies for teenage girls wanting to transition should be limited to a research setting.

"The uncertain state of knowledge calls for caution," Board department head Thomas Linden said in a statement in December.

So-called puberty blockers have been used in young teens contemplating gender transition to delay the onset of unwanted physical changes.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... ans-minors

Note: Puberty blockers used for any length of time(beyond used to stop early onset puberty on pre-teens) cause sterility/infertility, amongst a great many other side effects, like osteoporosis.

[Pants-of-dog]

I predict that not a single transphobe will cite a study.

[Godstud]

@Pants-of-dog Studies have been cited but since it's not your narrative you ignore them. You're indoctrinated into a cult and lack critical thinking abilities, as a result. Keep spouting rhetoric of your cult, though. That virtue singalling keeps you in it.

The majority of the 23 studies reviewed claimed that various forms of gender-affirming treatment were associated with reductions in suicidality; however, the validity and robustness of their results suffered from either a lack of measures of statistical significance and effect size, correction for multiple testing, controlling for psychiatric diagnostic makeup or psychiatric treatment history, substance use, the interaction of time since receiving gender-affirming treatment, or any combination of these.

Conclusion:
There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

We performed a cross-sectional analysis of the prevalence of psychiatric diagnoses among transgender patients in clinical care using an all-payer electronic health record database. Of 10,270 transgender patients identified, 58% (n=5940) had at least one psychiatric diagnosis compared with 13.6% (n=7,311,780) in the control patient population (p<0.0005). Transgender patients had a statistically significant increase in prevalence for all psychiatric diagnoses queried, with major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder being the most common diagnoses (31% and 12%, respectively).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6830528/

Other mental illnesses can also account for higher suicide rates amongst Transgender people, and no amount of gender affirming nonsense is going to affect that. They need help, not affirmation of delusion. That's not therapy, that causing harm,.

[Rugoz]

@Godstud You sound like a moron.

Gender-affirming care is nothing new. Surgery before the age of 18 is rare but not illegal. Relevant are medical guidelines. That's how it has been in my country for ages.

Of course America cannot deal with these issues rationally, because it's full of religious nutcases, and overreaction against them.

I mean Americans are still fighting over abortion! That issue was settled decades ago in most of the developed world. It's fucking hilarious.

[Pants-of-dog]

Note that the first quoted sentence of the study shows health benefits.

[Godstud]

@Godstud You sound like a moron.

Insult because you lack argument. Typical of a cultist.

Gender-affirming care is nothing new.

How it is being used is very new.

Surgery before the age of 18 is rare but not illegal.

When these were done it was for purely medical reasons, and not ideological or psychological ones. It was repairing actually defective biology, not trying cater to delusional people. You cannot seem to understand that this is elective cosmetic surgery.

Of course America cannot deal with these issues rationally, because it's full of religious nutcases, and overreaction against them.

There is nothing delusional about wanting children to not be subjected to a ideology of delusion and self-harm.

="Rugoz"]I mean Americans are still fighting over abortion! That issue was settled decades ago in most of the developed world. It's fucking hilarious.

Abortion should be illegal unless it is medically necessary. You are right about it being settled in most places by being illegal or being strictly controlled. USA now has the same laws regarding abortion as Canada. Getting rid of Roe vs Wade made it equivalent to Canada.

Note: Abortion is illegal in Germany barring certain circumstances such as when the life of the woman is at risk or she is a victim of a violent crime. In these cases, the procedure must be performed within 12 weeks of conception

I agree with this position. Germany is the West, too.

Note that the first quoted sentence of the study shows health benefits.

Why do you feel a need to lie about this? Those studies CLAIMED such things. That does not mean that they actually did those things.

[Rugoz]

Insult because you lack argument. Typical of a cultist.

Nope. Sometimes people just sound like morons.

When these were done it was for purely medical reasons, and not ideological or psychological ones. It was repairing actually defective biology, not trying cater to delusional people. You cannot seem to understand that this is elective cosmetic surgery.

No, for psychological reasons.

There is nothing delusional about wanting children to not be subjected to a ideology of delusion and self-harm.

Only assholes deny people treatment based on their stupid prejudices instead of medical/psychological knowledge.

Abortion should be illegal unless it is medically necessary. You are right about it being settled in most places by being illegal or being strictly controlled. USA now has the same laws regarding abortion as Canada. Getting rid of Roe vs Wade made it equivalent to Canada.

What? Nationally, abortion is legal through all nine months (40 weeks) of pregnancy. Depending on the province, limits are between 12 and 23 weeks.

Note: Abortion is illegal in Germany barring certain circumstances such as when the life of the woman is at risk or she is a victim of a violent crime. In these cases, the procedure must be performed within 12 weeks of conception

I agree with this position. Germany is the West, too.

Germany is a special case, in that abortion is illegal but "straffrei" (without penalty) up to the 14th week of pregnancy. Hence, de facto, it is perfectly legal.

[Godstud]

Nope. Sometimes people just sound like morons.

It's only you projecting you own inadequacies.

No, for psychological reasons.

False. You're making shit up to fit your ideological narrative.

Only assholes deny people treatment based on their stupid prejudices instead of medical/psychological knowledge.

It's not treatment if you are only pushing them deeper into delusion. That's not how you treat people.

Also it's not medically ethical to treat people with gender dysphoria with cosmetic surgery and experimental hormone therapy that has lifelong adverse side effects. It's a mental condition and not a medical one. They need therapy to help them accept themselves for what they actually are, and not what they want to pretend to be.

Treatment is supposed to help people, and not create lifelong problems or exacerbate the problems that they already have. That's like allowing an anorexic to get liposuction. Gender affirming care is equivalent to that.

What? Nationally, abortion is legal through all nine months (40 weeks) of pregnancy. Depending on the province, limits are between 12 and 23 weeks.

The same as in the USA, now. They leave it up to the states/provinces. In other words, the federal government doesn't take a stand on it.

Abortion in Germany is decriminalized on demand during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy upon condition of mandatory counseling.

[Pants-of-dog]

Anyone can read that the studies show benefits to gender reassignment treatments.

The criticism from the review is that these studies might not be methodologically rigorous enough, and so the claims.might be wrong

This can literally be said about any study ever.

It could even be said of the cited review.

[Godstud]

Anyone can read that the studies show benefits to gender reassignment treatments.

Yes, and how the studies are done is questionable, at best. The studies operated with a foregone conclusion, as well.

The criticism from the review is that these studies might not be methodologically rigorous enough, and so the claims.might be wrong

It's more than that but you aren't interested in that because it doesn't fit your cult's narrative.

This can literally be said about any study ever.

No. That's dishonest and objectively false. You just don't like that the study does not confirm your bias. Your feelings do not trump facts. Try some critical thinking for a change. Life isn't just about virtue signaling for your ideology.

[Pants-of-dog]

This is because studies, like all knowledge of the natural world, are contingent on the existing knowledge we have at the time they are made and can always be contradicted by future information.