[Fasces]

You're Neville Chamberlain, and I'm Winston Churchill, and that's the long and short of it.

You come off more as a teary Glenn Beck caricature, to be honest, but it is telling than when trying to defend the West's human rights record you lionize yourself as a racist imperialist that perpetrated 3 genocides, and was held back by his own government from doing even more.

LOL when did I do this "dishonesty"? Please quote it.

if you think China or India are going to behave better than a country of Abe Lincoln's and Obama's founded by the the principles laid out by the Founding Fathers which were light-years ahead of any country in the world at the time and still ahead of 90% of them and which blows the human rights laws of China and India

The Founding Fathers led a genocidal, sexist, classist, slave society. Jefferson wrote 'all men are created equal' in between sessions of raping his slaves. You compare principles to behavior, constantly.

you're the one who actually thinks China wants to help African nations because they want to be nice as opposed to trying to secure all of the rare earth minerals they need to win the tech/AI war.

Citation needed.

You seem to think China has a chance to behave more humane to other countries and peoples.

They do, without question. How many dead, displaced, or harmed populations are there in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, or Asia as a result of Chinese foreign policy? How many as a result of US foreign policy - in the last two decades alone, to say nothing of the Cold War?

Human rights within China are a joke

The US record internally may be marginally better than China's, at least in the last few decades, but a regime's human rights abuses don't cease to be human rights abuses because they're outsourced to villages half a world away.

Why don't you criticize the CCP as much as you do America?

I criticize China plenty. The problem is I criticize China as it is and for what it does - not for the imagined incarnation of evil it exists as in your head.

Why would the US limit its own power

Yes, signing the Convention on Rights of a Child would be an existential threat to American security.

You can't even keep what you argue for straight.

The US should seek to undermine these regimes by any means necessary save starting unnecessary violence

New poll: "How should China respond to Western aggression?"

never had any interest in peace

How many wars have American troops fought in in the last fifty years? Chinese?

[AFAIK]

This discussion reminds of an opinion piece I read recently in which the author compares the foreign policy goals publicly stated after the most recent G7 meeting with China's foreign policy statements over recent years and points out numerous similarities.

The G7 Wants to Copy China’s Homework. Beijing Is Fine With That.

Sans Paywall

[Tainari88]

@Fasces I am amazed at how many people think the US government is some kind of beacon of Human Rights.

It is the nation with the greatest amount of people in prison out of all industrialized nations.

Are American homegrown folk just naturally propelled for rule breaking and law breaking? Or could it be that once someone is committing crimes in the USA....they are dealt with with human rights.

It is all about having money for lawyers.

I think Trump is in trouble folks. But he won't be paying for the crimes like a Black Ghetto Person would without a few dollar bills in their pockets.

His form of punishment is going to be mitigated by his position in the US society and how many of his crazy loco cult followers are willing to destabilize their own government in order to have power over the ones whom they see as Commies when most of them are a bunch of garden variety liberals who are center to right in another political spectrum that is not obsessed with American style forms of human rights.

Have you seen courtroom consequences? How many people in the US are in court and wind up in plea deals because they do not have enough money to pay a private lawyer? A court-appointed attorney or pro bono attorney only shows up if you are a bonafide pauper. Which most working-class people are not.

Fasces, the reality is that people cling to lies and myths. Change that is imperative is too difficult for them until the chips are down and it is either life or death. And some people still would rather burn their own nation to the ground than to share power with the ones they have always thought were their inferiors. They have to cling to their arrogant lies rather and admit defeat and move on to a better society.

Fascism. What is it?

From Wikipedia:

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]

Fascism rose to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4][5] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries, most notably Germany.[4] Fascism also had adherents outside of Europe.[6] Opposed to anarchism, democracy, pluralism, liberalism, socialism, and Marxism,[7][8] fascism is placed on the far-right wing within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][8][9]

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and the mass mobilization of society erased the distinction between civilians and combatants. A military citizenship arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner.[10] The war resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines and providing logistics to support them, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.[10]


I do not care how many bullshit lies people believe in the USA about their liberal democratic society that does not exist and never existed. Every right that the USA citizens enjoyed had to be fought for in the reality of LIFE in human rights.

The same has to happen in every form of government known to humanity. All of it is a tug of war of conflicting interests.

Am I convinced that the US is a beacon of bullshit democracy? I think it is a really hypocritical nation run by a bunch of plutocrats who are class-conscious fascists who do not give a damn about the group they think are the out group.

That is not a big revelation for me.

I might be pulling out some reality tv...here but the truth is people learn from each other. Nation-states learn from observing each other.

The PRC studied the Yankee Playbook and took some pages from it. But reinterpreted it for a Chinese agenda. Discarded what it thought was sheer bullshit and focused on what the whole society really loves truly in the USA. Power through surrounding other nations with military might and bases. Getting profits from cheap labor and dominating resources by keeping everyone under some form of underdevelopment, threat and degradation to have only the top float out of the mess.

USA believes in force and violence, raping land and consuming without any limits, throwing the poor in jail and keeping the rich free of any real social, legal or financial responsibility that is not about some selfish shit of inherited wealth and old fucked up class systems from a rotten European failed experiment in Empire building.

The Chinese are a product of a society that had Emperors, internal wars, dynasties, hijos de puta sin escrupulos, being invaded and overtaken, losing control, have a peasant revolution with a Marxist Jewish German man as the model, made mass amounts of Mao shoes and the cultural revolution, then they had the build up the money and the capital. Create dependency on their labor and investment, and then bust a move for the power seat once the Foreign Devils get exhausted with their greed and abandon their own lower classes for GREED. They figured out that the core of all that shitty slavery, and killing and fights for power and negotiation was about the need for Greed.

If you want power like the Yankees got you got to go and offer a deal to the ones who are pawns in the chess game, wait for your move, and then the pawns become Queen pieces on the chess board over time that the Chinese invested in and then BAM....the Yankees will be losing petrodollars, the other lower pieces will scramble for a new order...based on who put in the trains, planes and chains that game them the ability to fight off mass starvation with climate change.

The American government spent all its resources printing money that no one trusts anymore.

The US gets desperate but what are they going to do? Strong arm the world to be their playthings? That kind of brainwashing is hard to do nowadays. Too many people can see minute-by-minute images of Chinese megacities, European programs and cities, and developing nations running around and with time, people will not be so closed minded with all the contradictions of capitalism and the failures of all of these policies that never favor anyone who is truly productive and not parasitical.

Once the Saudis stop backing the petrodollar and they accept yens instead? The USA has to worry about where their position went. It went when you refused to back your own workers because again....GREED trumped Nationalistic patriotism.

Everything about capitalism is about contradiction that comes back to create internal problems.

One has to move beyond cheap beliefs of a perfect better superior shit. History says otherwise. Humans are humans. Learn what makes us human and avoid the same mistakes made by decaying Empires for the 70 so cycles that the whole paradigm has dealt with before.

[Unthinking Majority]

How many wars have American troops fought in in the last fifty years? Chinese?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... c_of_China

Maybe its possible the Chinese will actually be less violent. They'll just threaten or pay off the politicians and diaspora and buy up all their land, real estate, and business interests, steal what they can, and coerce the world to be totally compliant to the CCP just like they force their own citizens to be.

I'm glad you support a tyrannical dictatorship with no guaranteed human rights while naively assuming such a dictatorship actually cares about poor people in foreign countries Not to mention supporting all of the conditions leading to another Cold War except not wanting a Cold War

[Pants-of-dog]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China

Maybe its possible the Chinese will actually be less violent. They'll just threaten or pay off the politicians and diaspora and buy up all their land, real estate, and business interests, steal what they can, and coerce the world to be totally compliant to the CCP just like they force their own citizens to be.

I'm glad you support a tyrannical dictatorship with no guaranteed human rights while naively assuming such a dictatorship actually cares about poor people in foreign countries Not to mention supporting all of the conditions leading to another Cold War except not wanting a Cold War

Okay. Let us imagine that. Imagine the CCP slowly takes over control in a manner that is non-violent but still coercive in some respects. It would be anti-democratic in many ways, but still better than the western approach that is also anti-democratic, and coercive, but also violent.

But we do not have to speculate. We can look at what the Chinese are doing right now here in Canada where you and I live.

Is it wrong that Chinese are buying up tons of Canadian land? Is it wrong for Chinese people to immigrate here? Is it wrong for them to buy businesses? All of this is perfectly legal and normal for anyone else, so it would require a good reason to make an exception for Chinese people.

There is also the issue of foreign involvement in Canadian democracy and elections. Trudeau seems to be doing well for himself in looking like he steadfastly opposes China. Inquiries were called for, committees were created, press releases were released.

[Unthinking Majority]

Is it wrong that Chinese are buying up tons of Canadian land? Is it wrong for Chinese people to immigrate here? Is it wrong for them to buy businesses? All of this is perfectly legal and normal for anyone else, so it would require a good reason to make an exception for Chinese people.

Well it depends if such purchases were allowed because political palms were greased, which i'm sure some were.

There is also the issue of foreign involvement in Canadian democracy and elections. Trudeau seems to be doing well for himself in looking like he steadfastly opposes China. Inquiries were called for, committees were created, press releases were released.

Nothing meaningful has been done yet about that. Trudeau likes to make a big show of things that have little or no depth, that's literally who he is.

[Politics_Observer]

@Fasces

I chose "Other." I would go with one of the above options with a small change to it "Ban Chinese companies and only Chinese citizens shown to present a national security threat to the United States such as working for Chinese intelligence organizations or government agencies or government organizations that engage in activities that a reasonable prudent person would regard as a national security threat to the United States from sensitive aspects of society that could weaken security, and move sensitive manufacturing out of China." I would also add to this "Strengthen U.S. military power to deter China in order to prevent the astronomical costs of war either in Taiwan or other parts of the world, including the Pacific, through such policy of credible military deterrence."

I use the reasonable prudent person standard, so the government can't abuse such a statute against Chinese citizens who do not present a national security threat to the United States and would thus constrain US government power from harassing or imprisoning innocent Chinese citizens currently living in or visiting the United States who do not present any real national security threat to the United States.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well it depends if such purchases were allowed because political palms were greased, which i'm sure some were.

No. It is not necessary to bribe politicians in order to do legal things.

Nothing meaningful has been done yet about that. Trudeau likes to make a big show of things that have little or no depth, that's literally who he is.

Okay.

Let us look at a specific example. The accusation of bussing in Chinese students to nominate Han Dong in Don Valley North.

What should be done there?

[skinster]

What "Chinese aggression" are Western countries dealing with?

[Negotiator]

What "Chinese aggression" are Western countries dealing with? :?:

The Chinese have the unbelievable audacity, the aggression beyond belief, to think we have no business in managing and controlling their country.

They also want to hold us accountable to agreements we did back in the 1950s and 1970s that there is only one China and that China and Taiwan will reunite someday.

We of course believe in the rules based order. And that rule is actually just one, and thats that the USA rules. All your affairs. You have no sovereignty.

We will bring you democracy. That means the worst democracy on the planet will force you whatever they want you do to and claim thats the will of YOUR people, despite the USA not just ignoring, but completely clueless about your countries interests.

Also, the very idea that the west would be beholden to past agreements. Riddiculous. We never do that. Just now, we dont have a single active treaty for nuclear weapons anymore. The russians have put START on pause because we dont allow their inspectors into the USA anymore. And there is no replacement and START is running out and all other treaties have already been canceled.

You see, the USA is the master and everybody else is the slave. Thats how god wants it. Anyone having different ideas, anyone wanting to live differently, thats just aggression and needs to be suppressed.

[late]

Prob the most difficult thing a president has to deal with is foreign affairs.

There is always tension, or worse, between diplomacy and domestic politics. The recent Biden gaffe where he called Xi a dictator is a good example.

He has to maintain long term strategic goals within the everyday world of tactical imperatives, alliances, and the ever present threat of chaos. Speaking of which, I just started a notable new book about the origins of WW1 called Sleepwalkers.

If you haven't paid attention, and it's blatantly obvious most of you haven't, you have no idea.

[skinster]

The Chinese have the unbelievable audacity, the aggression beyond belief, to think we have no business in managing and controlling their country.

They also want to hold us accountable to agreements we did back in the 1950s and 1970s that there is only one China and that China and Taiwan will reunite someday.

We of course believe in the rules based order. And that rule is actually just one, and thats that the USA rules. All your affairs. You have no sovereignty.

We will bring you democracy. That means the worst democracy on the planet will force you whatever they want you do to and claim thats the will of YOUR people, despite the USA not just ignoring, but completely clueless about your countries interests.

Also, the very idea that the west would be beholden to past agreements. Riddiculous. We never do that. Just now, we dont have a single active treaty for nuclear weapons anymore. The russians have put START on pause because we dont allow their inspectors into the USA anymore. And there is no replacement and START is running out and all other treaties have already been canceled.

You see, the USA is the master and everybody else is the slave. Thats how god wants it. Anyone having different ideas, anyone wanting to live differently, thats just aggression and needs to be suppressed.

Indeed. This is a clear understanding of that so-called "Chinese aggression".

Prob the most difficult thing a president has to deal with is foreign affairs.

There is always tension, or worse, between diplomacy and domestic politics. The recent Biden gaffe where he called Xi a dictator is a good example.

He has to maintain long term strategic goals within the everyday world of tactical imperatives, alliances, and the ever present threat of chaos. Speaking of which, I just started a notable new book about the origins of WW1 called Sleepwalkers.

If you haven't paid attention, and it's blatantly obvious most of you haven't, you have no idea.

The state of this poster

[Fasces]

late is stuck with the unfortunate reality of supporting Biden for replacing the hated Trump, while Biden has continued, without change, Trump's foreign policy.

[late]

The state of this poster

I always smile when a poster reveals the void behind the pretense.

[skinster]

late is stuck with the unfortunate reality of supporting Biden for replacing the hated Trump, while Biden has continued, without change, Trump's foreign policy.

Anyone defending Biden today, good goddess..

[late]

late is stuck with the unfortunate reality of supporting Biden for replacing the hated Trump, while Biden has continued, without change, Trump's foreign policy.

There were several changes. That you didn't notice...

[Fasces]

Outside of Europe, what? @late

[Tainari88]

Well, folks in this thread, the reality is that Anti Communism is a deeply rooted AMERICAN mentality. You can't have communist theories, socialism as a model. Capitalist white Christian heterosexual paradigms are AMERICAN. The other ideas are a threat to freedom, justice and the American way.

Unless that shit is dealt with and confronted as paranoid and ignorant shit? The justification for going to war with China is going to be alluring to the majority of the brainwashed idiots who hate political philosophies that they never studied in their lives before.

Figure out why people are attracted to socialism and communism rhetoric. Come up with a plan to counteract that attractiveness with something that works for a capitalist society full of extreme polarities such as wealthy and not wealthy or poor or working class. If you can't attack the problems of high unemployment, poverty, no access to basic health care, paucity of education, huge student loan debts, and lack of being able to own a modest home, then where is the moral high ground for being anti-communist and anti-socialist?

You need to be realistic. Labels are bullshit. Actions and quality of life lived for millions is REALITY. Come up with solutions if you hate socialism. If you can't and just spout status quo shitty injustice? The socialism will advance. With or without your help.

This video explains America's obsessions with communism. Note that in foreign policy the attitude of interferences from the Conservative Right in the USA is extremely FAILED.

Trying to stop the PRC because the Americans are the Good Guys because?

Is not going to work.

[late]

Outside of Europe, what? @late

Good grief..

"The foreign policy of the Joe Biden administration emphasizes the repair of the United States' alliances, which Biden argues were damaged during the Trump administration.[1][2] The administration's goal is to restore the United States to a "position of trusted leadership" among global democracies in order to address challenges posed by Russia and China.[1][3][4][5] Both Biden and his Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin have repeatedly emphasized that no other world power should be able to surpass the United States, either militarily or economically.[6]

Since assuming office, President Biden has sought to strengthen the transatlantic alliance between the U.S. and Europe.[1][4] He has reaffirmed the United States' commitment to the NATO alliance and collective security.[7] Additionally, Biden has reinstated the U.S. as a member of the Paris Climate Agreement[5] and has implemented other measures to address climate change.[8][9][10] The administration places great emphasis on international cooperation in combating the COVID-19 pandemic,[1][11] as well as bolstering U.S. defenses against foreign-sponsored cyberattacks, cyber espionage,[12][13][14] and trade and industrial policy competition.[15][16]

Biden's extensive experience in foreign affairs includes serving as the chairman or ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for twelve years. He also played a significant role in shaping foreign policy during the Obama presidency.[17][18] The Biden administration continues to uphold policies that enjoy bipartisan consensus, particularly those related to competition with China and the reduction of U.S. military presence in the Greater Middle East."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_p ... nistration

But the sticks out like a pounded thumb difference is Trump ran his mouth, Biden ran the country. He got things done....

[Tainari88]

Good grief..

"The foreign policy of the Joe Biden administration emphasizes the repair of the United States' alliances, which Biden argues were damaged during the Trump administration.[1][2] The administration's goal is to restore the United States to a "position of trusted leadership" among global democracies in order to address challenges posed by Russia and China.[1][3][4][5] Both Biden and his Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin have repeatedly emphasized that no other world power should be able to surpass the United States, either militarily or economically.[6]

Since assuming office, President Biden has sought to strengthen the transatlantic alliance between the U.S. and Europe.[1][4] He has reaffirmed the United States' commitment to the NATO alliance and collective security.[7] Additionally, Biden has reinstated the U.S. as a member of the Paris Climate Agreement[5] and has implemented other measures to address climate change.[8][9][10] The administration places great emphasis on international cooperation in combating the COVID-19 pandemic,[1][11] as well as bolstering U.S. defenses against foreign-sponsored cyberattacks, cyber espionage,[12][13][14] and trade and industrial policy competition.[15][16]

Biden's extensive experience in foreign affairs includes serving as the chairman or ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for twelve years. He also played a significant role in shaping foreign policy during the Obama presidency.[17][18] The Biden administration continues to uphold policies that enjoy bipartisan consensus, particularly those related to competition with China and the reduction of U.S. military presence in the Greater Middle East."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_p ... nistration

But the sticks out like a pounded thumb difference is Trump ran his mouth, Biden ran the country. He got things done....

My big problem is not enough is getting done and there are a bunch of hypocritical sellouts in the Democratic party. For me liberals got to be committed to strengthening the working class and building a solid middle-class, universal health insurance by expanding one-payer medicare and making public universities tuition-free and many other programs. If it is unable to do that because a bunch of liberals in the Democratic party are into wealth and corporate payoffs then they might as well be fascist Republicans in deed.

All these wishy washy fake Leftists in the USA need to be deposed of power because change is not what they actually do. Actions is what counts in this world. Not speeches Late.

I am surprised that in Mexico working class mothers and fathers have free government sponsored child care. You got public clinics and hospitals covering everyone. Yes, it is not the best and the fastest. But it exists.

Stop with the failed policies. You are now as a nation failing at universal health care and universal child care with Mexico. A nation that depends on the US dollar and economy. That has a lot less money and a bunch of working people making shit for wages and they still can get universal health care done and universal child care accomplished.

The USA is seriously backward because they are petrified of SOCIALISM. That is DUMB!!!