What is Fascism - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Polls on politics, news, current affairs and history.

What is Fascism?

Anti-Socialist Bulwork to protect capitalism
22
30%
Institutional totalitarian
24
32%
Fanaticism
2
3%
Mercantilism
No votes
0%
Socialism
7
9%
Other (please elaborate)
19
26%
#15121591
Pants-of-dog wrote:Right now, in the USA, there are people who justified locking children in cages because the kids were not from the USA. Is this sort of nationalism “extreme” enough to qualify as “neo-nazi BS”?

It's more complex than that. Their parents (or other adult they were with) broke the law by crossing the border without authorization. The law at the time, decided by the courts during the Obama era, said that it's inhumane to detain children indefinitely when they did nothing wrong (their parents did) where they can't go to school etc. So if the gov chooses to enforce the law at the border, the law said that children by law had to be separated from their parents if their parents were arrested and put in detention. Which is why there were photos of kids in cages during Obama admin too. Before this, kids and parents/guardians were kept in the same detention units, but immigrant rights groups wanted this overturned since they argued it wasn't fair to the children, and it was overturned.

This was not a "Trump policy" to put kids in cages. Their policy was to enforce the border laws to stop illegal crossings, which by necessity meant separating the kids and letting them stay with family etc that were in the US. The conditions for the detention for the kids, however, was not good, an the whole thing was a fiasco.

So the choices are: don't enforce border law, let illegal crossing continue & families stay together, or arrest people crossing & detain them thus separating them from their kids. Either way, bad stuff is happening. The Trump admin attempted to change the law after the fiasco.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/21/politics ... index.html

    "The Trump administration on Wednesday announced plans to end a decades-old settlement agreement that had set a 20-day limit for holding children and issue new regulations that could hold undocumented families detained together indefinitely.

    The 1997 Flores v. Reno court agreement had set nationwide policy for the detention and treatment of minors in immigration custody.

    It requires the government to release children from immigration detention without unnecessary delay to their parents, other adult relatives or licensed programs...

    In 2015, US District Judge Dolly Gee ruled that Flores requirements apply to both unaccompanied minors and children apprehended with their parents. This means that all minors must be released from detention if possible, Meissner said.

    The Trump administration has made repeated attempts to change the Flores settlement agreement, arguing that it hinders the government from deterring undocumented immigrants from entering the country.

    Last year, the Trump administration was criticized for its "zero tolerance policy" that led to thousands of family separations at the US border.

    To comply with the Flores settlement and criminally prosecute 100% of illegal border crossings, the Trump administration separated adults from the children with whom they had crossed the border -- detaining the adults in federal prisons while awaiting their criminal proceedings and sending the children to Health and Human Services' facilities and shelters.
    After mounting criticism from the public and members of Congress, President Donald Trump issued an executive order reversing course to keep the families together."
User avatar
By Wulfschilde
#15121593
The Fash, noun. A mischaracterization of normal behavioral standards and institutions as hostile, typically employed by screaming drug addicts.
By B0ycey
#15121628
Istanbuller wrote:People do not want to give up their private properties. You need a brutal force to accomplish that kind of task. A dictator with absolute power can steal them. National ownership can be possible only in a dictatorship.


It is the law that creates private property to begin with. It isn't a naural event. So if you vote for a Socialist party and they change the law, that is called democracy. Besides, under Marx there is a thing called personal property in any case which would over ride that hurdle and successful Socialist countries today are hybrids.
By Rich
#15121649
Godstud wrote:You're ignorant. Hitler wasn't a socialist. His party started off that way, but he abandoned all the socialist concepts. This is a tired old load of bullshit that people with no education are constantly spewing out. Good job. You identified yourself as lacking in education.

No it seems like you're the ignorant one here. I say seems, because you seem to speak to just be ignorant rather deliberately lying on this point. The Nazis in power introduced many of their socialist measures.

The issue of whether the Nazis were socialists isn’t a straightforward one, due to how the Nazi party developed and grew its base of support. But the consensus among historians is that the Nazis, and Hitler in particular, were not socialists in any meaningful sense.
https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/

These historians on the other hand are lying propagandists. They know full well that the Nazis were socialist by any reasonable measure but for ideological reasons look for any ruse to deny this fact. Of course the Nazis didn't implement all the socialist measures they promised, what government ever does.

But anyway if you're so smart and educated, if you're so well researched in the history of where you live perhaps you'd like to tell us about Thailand's fascist history. Perhaps you'd like to tell us about the pro democracy demonstrations that are taking place right now.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15121650
Rich wrote:These historians on the other hand are lying propagandists.
:lol: So now everyone's a liar who doesn't go along with your fucked-in-the-head version of history? :lol:

Thailand is as relevant as the cost of tea. Stop deflecting.
By Rich
#15121656
Godstud wrote::lol: So now everyone's a liar who doesn't go along with your fucked-in-the-head version of history? :lol:

Yes the large majority of historians are intellectually dishonest when it comes to defining terms in anything related to the Nazis. History can never be fully objective. History will always be influenced by the ideological concerns of the present, but even the pretence of objective history goes out of the window when it comes to the Nazis. Just one example of the extreme Islamophilic bias that pervades modern history. How many histories of the nineteen thirties and the second world war that talk about the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis ever talk about the treatment of the Jews by our ally and lend lease recipient Saudi Arabia?

Thailand is as relevant as the cost of tea. Stop deflecting.

:lol:
Wiki wrote:Fascist Thailand
Phibun gave ultranationalism speech to the crowds at the Grand Palace in 1940.

On 23 June 1939,[1] Phibun changed the country's name from Siam to Prathet Thai (Thai: ประเทศไทย), or Thailand, said to mean "land of the free". This was a nationalist gesture: it implied the unity of all the Tai-speaking peoples, including the Lao and the Shan, but excluding the Chinese. The regime's slogan became "Thailand for the Thai."
User avatar
By Godstud
#15121659
I do not involve myself in Thai politics. I cannot be well informed, as I don't speak/read Thai. I also have no say in it. You're coming across as nothing but a complete FOOL, and an asshole @Rich.

Thailand is still not FASCIST either, :lol: . It's as Democratic as the USA. It might have been at one time, but that's irrelevant. You seem to have a morbid fascination and obsession with Thailand. Why is that? Deflection, that's why. Simps use that sort of tactic.

Now, go take your dishonest and foolish bullshit somewhere else. Facts are facts, and if you don't like history you can't merely rewrite it to say what you want it to say. Ignoring the reality for your false narrative is all you're doing. You might impress your 4chan and reddit morons, but that's it. :knife:
#15121695
Unthinking Majority wrote:It's more complex than that. Their parents (or other adult they were with) broke the law by crossing the border without authorization. The law at the time, decided by the courts during the Obama era, said that it's inhumane to detain children indefinitely when they did nothing wrong (their parents did) where they can't go to school etc. So if the gov chooses to enforce the law at the border, the law said that children by law had to be separated from their parents if their parents were arrested and put in detention. Which is why there were photos of kids in cages during Obama admin too. Before this, kids and parents/guardians were kept in the same detention units, but immigrant rights groups wanted this overturned since they argued it wasn't fair to the children, and it was overturned.

This was not a "Trump policy" to put kids in cages. Their policy was to enforce the border laws to stop illegal crossings, which by necessity meant separating the kids and letting them stay with family etc that were in the US. The conditions for the detention for the kids, however, was not good, an the whole thing was a fiasco.

So the choices are: don't enforce border law, let illegal crossing continue & families stay together, or arrest people crossing & detain them thus separating them from their kids. Either way, bad stuff is happening. The Trump admin attempted to change the law after the fiasco.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/21/politics ... index.html

    "The Trump administration on Wednesday announced plans to end a decades-old settlement agreement that had set a 20-day limit for holding children and issue new regulations that could hold undocumented families detained together indefinitely.

    The 1997 Flores v. Reno court agreement had set nationwide policy for the detention and treatment of minors in immigration custody.

    It requires the government to release children from immigration detention without unnecessary delay to their parents, other adult relatives or licensed programs...

    In 2015, US District Judge Dolly Gee ruled that Flores requirements apply to both unaccompanied minors and children apprehended with their parents. This means that all minors must be released from detention if possible, Meissner said.

    The Trump administration has made repeated attempts to change the Flores settlement agreement, arguing that it hinders the government from deterring undocumented immigrants from entering the country.

    Last year, the Trump administration was criticized for its "zero tolerance policy" that led to thousands of family separations at the US border.

    To comply with the Flores settlement and criminally prosecute 100% of illegal border crossings, the Trump administration separated adults from the children with whom they had crossed the border -- detaining the adults in federal prisons while awaiting their criminal proceedings and sending the children to Health and Human Services' facilities and shelters.
    After mounting criticism from the public and members of Congress, President Donald Trump issued an executive order reversing course to keep the families together."


Thank you for providing the justification for putting kids in cages.

And thanks for pointing out that these kids were put in cages for the fact that they were not from the USA.

Now that you have provided examples of the justifications, I will assume you agree that US policy is nationalist to the point that it causes negative impacts for others.

The Holocaust museum in Washington has a sign warning of the 12 signs of creeping fascism.

Here they are:


    EARLY WARNING SIGNS OF FASCISM

    1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
    2. Disdain for human rights
    3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
    4. Rampant sexism
    5. Controlled mass media
    6. Obsession with national security
    7. Religion and government intertwined
    8. Corporate power protected
    9. Labor power suppressed
    10. Disdain for intellectual and the arts
    11. Obsession with crime and punishment
    12. Rampant cronyism and corruption


Trump is not able to control the mass media yet, despite his attempts to undermine confidence in the media, but the other eleven seem to be there.
#15121779
Pants-of-dog wrote:Thank you for providing the justification for putting kids in cages.

And thanks for pointing out that these kids were put in cages for the fact that they were not from the USA.

My point wasn't to "justify putting kids in cages". Forcing kids away from their parents is a stupid thing to do. My point was to show that it wasn't some cruel policy a fascist Trump admin dreamed up as the media likes to portray, it was something the courts during the Obama admin dreamed up.

Immigration law at the border can't be enforced without separating kids from parents, which means the law sucks.

Trump is populist and nationalist and a poorly hidden closet racist. So yes there's some vague similarity with fascism
By Pants-of-dog
#15121806
Unthinking Majority wrote:My point wasn't to "justify putting kids in cages". Forcing kids away from their parents is a stupid thing to do. My point was to show that it wasn't some cruel policy a fascist Trump admin dreamed up as the media likes to portray, it was something the courts during the Obama admin dreamed up.


It does not become less fascist simply because it was another administration that started it. Most of the fascist tendencies in US politics predate Trump.

Immigration law at the border can't be enforced without separating kids from parents, which means the law sucks.


Of course you can keep families together.

Trump is populist and nationalist and a poorly hidden closet racist. So yes there's some vague similarity with fascism


Trump is not hiding his racism at all. In fact, a large percentage of his supporters openly enjoy his racism and also openly express racism.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15121821
Pants-of-dog wrote:It does not become less fascist simply because it was another administration that started it. Most of the fascist tendencies in US politics predate Trump.



Of course you can keep families together.


POD men and women go to jail every day in Canada and the USA. Unfortunately, the kids cannot go to prison with their parents. When people get arrested they are separated form the kids. It sucks, but I blame the parents.


Trump is not hiding his racism at all. In fact, a large percentage of his supporters openly enjoy his racism and also openly express racism.


Trump is a pragmatist and a populist. I am certain Trump has racists thoughts, but to me the worse racism is the condescending racism of low expectations of the left when dealing with minorities.
Last edited by Julian658 on 21 Sep 2020 03:21, edited 1 time in total.
#15121825
Pants-of-dog wrote:Of course you can keep families together.

That's not what the courts have decided.

The courts aren't doing it to be fascist, they're doing it to keep kids out of jail. If I were the POTUS given this situation i'd release the families into the US and put tracking bracelets on all of them, and then try to get the law changed.
#15121841
Julian658 wrote:POD men and women go to jail every day in Canada and the USA. Unfortunately, the kids cannot go to prison with their parents. When people get arrested they are separated form the kids. It sucks, but I blame the parents.


Then explain why you are sending people to jail when they have not committed a crime, and then using that as an excuse to put their kids in jail too.

Trump is a pragmatist and a populist. I am certain Trump has racists thoughts, but to me the worse racism is the condescending racism of low expectations of the left when dealing with minorities.


Stop calling people racist when you have no argument.

The relationship between racism and Trump’s success has been scientifically supported with evidence. This dynamic, selling racism in order to gain money and power, is an old school play that fascists often use. I am not sure if this thing where people pretend it is not racism is new or not.

—————————

Unthinking Majority wrote:That's not what the courts have decided.


Then the courts are wrong.

The fact that several branches of government are all agreeing that you can jail people who have not committed a crime (but simply because they are not citizens or legal residents) does not make it any less of a human rights abuse, nor does it lessen the nationalist aspect of this double standard.

The courts aren't doing it to be fascist, they're doing it to keep kids out of jail.


And yet the kids end up in government custody without their freedom and separated from their parents. There is no significant difference between their confinement and actual incarceration.
#15121856
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then the courts are wrong.

The fact that several branches of government are all agreeing that you can jail people who have not committed a crime (but simply because they are not citizens or legal residents) does not make it any less of a human rights abuse, nor does it lessen the nationalist aspect of this double standard.

It's against US law to enter the country illegally. They aren't sending people to jail, they're caught coming over illegally and are put in an immigration detention facility and some are charged with crimes, others are sent back to their county of origin, others might file a refugee/asylum claim I assume. If you don't have legal status authorities can detain you for all sorts of reasons, such as if they can't establish your identity, or they're deporting you, or they think if they release you you're a flight risk etc. This is the case in virtually every country.

And yet the kids end up in government custody without their freedom and separated from their parents. There is no significant difference between their confinement and actual incarceration.

You realize their parents are also in government custody locked in a "cage" (detention facility) right? Because they were caught breaking the law. So if they weren't separated, kids would be in "jail". The courts say it's cruel to also detain the children who did nothing wrong, so they order the kids separated from the parents to go live with relatives or another parent in the US or whatever. Which is exactly what they do with US citizens when parents go to jail & they have kids. But the way the Trump admin did it was cruel IMO, it's messed up, they need to change the law, and they need humane family detention facilities with schooling for the kids etc. while the parents are processed.
#15121866
Voted: Other

Fascism is not a coherent system of political beliefs, but a racist appeal to an imaginary "Golden time" where the voter is lied to and fed promises that they and their haplogroup will be restored to a mythical time of superiority. In practice, fascism is fundamentally unable to deal with any societal problems outside of assuring the believer that said problems do not exist through slick marketing. Trump and his response to the pandemic are a recent example of this.

Fascism is destined to fail under any circumstance, even complete and total victory through warfare. It is societal level dementia which requires the persecution of an ever smaller series of villains who are simultaneously immensely powerful, but also weak, corrupt, hedonistic, and feminine. Fascism is not so much a distinct set of practical political solutions as it is an emotional state not unlike deadbeat dads who lost their children in divorce court because their ex-wife is an all powerful bitch backed by a corrupt judicial system who has tricked their children into hating their father while also being a stupid slut who doesn't know shit.

Fascism is divorced dad energy made manifest into political action.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15121888
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then explain why you are sending people to jail when they have not committed a crime, and then using that as an excuse to put their kids in jail too.

I realize this is a difficult concept, but crossing the border illegally is a crime. The US does not have open borders.


Stop calling people racist when you have no argument.


The left favors state sanctioned condescending racism of low expectations with affirmative action:

The system discriminates against Asians and whites if they are too smart. See the Harvard lawsuit. At the same time it practices condescending racism of low expectations by admitting blacks and other minorities with low scores. This is very sad because these students are a mismatch and often struggle to keep up with other students.

The relationship between racism and Trump’s success has been scientifically supported with evidence.


Please provide citation from reputable sources.

Then the courts are wrong.

You are not a lawyer. You know nothing about the issue.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15121890
Julian658 wrote:I realize this is a difficult concept, but crossing the border illegally is a crime.
Polluting is a crime with a bigger penalty, and they don't incarcerate you for it.

Julian658 wrote:The left favors state sanctioned condescending racism of low expectations with affirmative action:
Your asshole racist argument is bullshit and complete rubbish.

Julian658 wrote:The system discriminates against Asians and whites if they are too smart.
Complete bullshit.

Julian658 wrote:See the Harvard lawsuit.
Present your evidence, don't ask me to go looking for you. So far, since you didn't source it, I think it's a fabrication, on your part.

Julian658 wrote:At the same time it practices condescending racism of low expectations by admitting blacks and other minorities with low scores.
That's a racist claim you keep making, that is fantasy on your part, designed to make your racist narrative seem logical and reasonable. It's not.

Julian658 wrote:You are not a lawyer. You know nothing about the issue.
He knows as much, or more than you on the issue, and he's not a biased racist.
By Sivad
#15121903
SpecialOlympian wrote:
It is societal level dementia which requires the persecution of an ever smaller series of villains who are simultaneously immensely powerful


That basically sums up what the woketard larpers are all about, saving the world from the Proud Boys and such. :lol:
By Pants-of-dog
#15121904
Unthinking Majority wrote:It's against US law to enter the country illegally. They aren't sending people to jail, they're caught coming over illegally and are put in an immigration detention facility and some are charged with crimes, others are sent back to their county of origin, others might file a refugee/asylum claim I assume. If you don't have legal status authorities can detain you for all sorts of reasons, such as if they can't establish your identity, or they're deporting you, or they think if they release you you're a flight risk etc. This is the case in virtually every country.


None of this contradicts the fact that they are put in jail even though they have not committed a crime, and so are the kids, and it is all justified and made legal because they are not citizens or residents.

That was the reason you and Julian gave for putting kids in cages: they and their parents were in jail.

You are agreeing with me and then explaining how and why I am correct.

You realize their parents are also in government custody locked in a "cage" (detention facility) right? Because they were caught breaking the law. So if they weren't separated, kids would be in "jail". The courts say it's cruel to also detain the children who did nothing wrong, so they order the kids separated from the parents to go live with relatives or another parent in the US or whatever. Which is exactly what they do with US citizens when parents go to jail & they have kids. But the way the Trump admin did it was cruel IMO, it's messed up, they need to change the law, and they need humane family detention facilities with schooling for the kids etc. while the parents are processed.


None of this contradicts the fact that they are put in jail even though they have not committed a crime, and so are the kids, and it is all justified and made legal because they are not citizens or residents.

That was the reason you and Julian gave for putting kids in cages: they and their parents were in jail.

You are agreeing with me and then explaining how and why I am correct.

And this is all a tangent for the actual topic: that the US is moving towards fascism. And your continued support and justification of this is a good example of why the US is moving towards fascism: because once these kinds of human rights abuses are legalised when we target foreigners, human rights in general are weaker.

————————-

@Julian658

No, being in the USA illegally is not a crime. Please learn enough about your own laws so that you do not need Canadians and Latinos to explain them to you.

While you are looking that up, you can look up the other things you asked me for.
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