Right Wing Marxism? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Potemkin
#14870681
But....if you get a guy who claims to be pro-working class and shares their values? You get the election in 2016, or Adolf Hitler, etc.

...or, indeed, Joseph Stalin. :)
#14870682
Potemkin wrote:...or, indeed, Joseph Stalin.


Oh really, he was pro-religion?
By B0ycey
#14870687
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Oh really, he was pro-religion?


He was pro Soviets VS. But he wasn't exactly beneficial for the working class was he. He (or I should say Lenin) just stood against something more hated at the time. Tsars.
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By Rugoz
#14870688
Potemkin wrote:But those were fully developed economies, with centuries of capitalist development behind them. The Soviet Union started more or less from scratch in 1921, after what little industry which existed under Tsarism had been destroyed by years of the Great War followed by civil war. But in just two decades, the Soviet economy could slug it out with Nazi Germany and win. Even Hitler was shocked by the rapid development of Soviet industry, which he had never suspected before Operation Barbarossa.


Oh dear. I have no intention of getting into another Stalin dick measuring contest. Let's assume central planning was worth it before and during the war, it was still a mistake after the war.
#14870690
B0ycey wrote:He was pro Soviets VS. But he wasn't exactly beneficial for the working class was he. He (or I should say Lenin) just stood against something more hated at the time. Tsars.


Potemkin just compared Stalin's values to that of Trump Voters, so be aware of the context of this conversation.

That being said, whats your point? The October Revolution was hardly a populist revolution by Russian orthodox rural peasants. It was an urban movement joining frustrated industrial workers and academics into a bloody revolution against a monarchy that legit fucked up in World War I and had a weak chance of perpetuating its dynasty. This movement used its own inertia from that bloody revolution to secure that country through the very divisive Russian Civil War and used its rigid domestic policies to keep it together through the Cold War.

But if you are claiming that Stalin has the same religious and cultural values as the Rural Rust-Belt Americans who voted for Trump, you are making a rather absurd proposition.
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By ingliz
#14870691
Oh really, he was pro-religion?

Yes, when it suited him (example: Great Patriotic War); No, when it didn't (example: 1928–1941).


:)
#14870695
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti ... %80%931941)

Yeah.....I'm pretty sure where he stood on religion was clear and for anyone to say that religious rural folks would willingly vote for such person because "he shares their values." is making an absurd claim.
By Decky
#14870696
Victoribus Spolia wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1928%E2%80%931941)

Yeah.....I'm pretty sure where he stood on religion was clear and for anyone to say that religious rural folks would willingly vote for such person because "he shares their values." is making an absurd claim.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

In the Soviet election of 1937 the Communists got 89,844,271 votes (99.3% of the vote on a 96.8% turnout). Stalin was clearly pretty popular with everyone, not just the people in the cities.
#14870698
Decky wrote:You have no idea what you are talking about.

In the Soviet election of 1937 the Communists got 89,844,271 votes (99.3% of the vote on a 96.8% turnout). Stalin was clearly pretty popular with everyone, not just the people in the cities.


We are talking about religious rural TRUMP voters in the context of the conversation and the claim that Stalin shares those same values, if you claim otherwise, please explain. That is literally my only point.

Besides, do you really think that I would believe voting statistics from the early Soviet Union? Suddam Hussein, Kim Jong Un, and The Castros all had overwhelming "democratic" victories under such a criteria. Which is a load of horseshit.

Do you really believe that Christian peasants who saw their priests disappear or get murdered, only opposed such (by not supporting Stalin) at a rate of less than 1%? That is gullibility on display.
Last edited by Victoribus Spolia on 13 Dec 2017 17:01, edited 1 time in total.
By B0ycey
#14870703
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Potemkin just compared Stalin's values to that of Trump Voters, so be aware of the context of this conversation.


I didn't see him reference that at all. He made a point. A point you missed but I agree with.

However I will address your point. Trump, like the Bolsheviks, knew the power of propaganda, lies and how to manipulate a hatred of a class/minority to promote an agenda that serves against their selected audience interests. For someone who has a large family I find it strange that you are more interested in Muslims entering your country than the GOP tax reforms that will hit your pocket. But I am not surprised. Because Trump knows how to play his audience. He knows how to distract you. The Bolsheviks did likewise. Perhaps Russia and America are not so different after all.

That being said, whats your point? The October Revolution was hardly a populist revolution by Russian orthodox rural peasants. It was an urban movement joining frustrated industrial workers and academics into a bloody revolution against a monarchy that legit fucked up in World War I and had a weak chance of perpetuating its dynasty. This movement used its own inertia from that bloody revolution to secure that country through the very divisive Russian Civil War and used its rigid domestic policies to keep it together through the Cold War.

But if you are claiming that Stalin has the same religious and cultural values as the Rural Rust-Belt Americans who voted for Trump, you are making a rather absurd proposition
.


I don't make such a claim. Nor did Pote. He just made a point that this is what you get under such conditions. Stalin stood for the people that were fighting for revolution. What he achieved when he was in power was not in their personal interests. Similar to that of your fellow Rustic-belt neighbours. But while Trump might use religion as his wolf blanket, Stalin used the hatred of Tsars for his. The only difference is objective.
Last edited by B0ycey on 13 Dec 2017 17:09, edited 1 time in total.
By Decky
#14870704
You really know nothing about Christianity, it makes sense since you are a Luther worshipping Prod not a Christian. Christ was the first Communist and Stalin was the foremost of his saints. Go back to worshipping money and power.

Image

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#14870711
B0ycey wrote:I didn't see him reference that at all. He made a point. A point you missed but I agree with.


He was responding to my remarks in my address to Left Nationalist wherein I specifically state that if rural rust belt folks get an option where the politician simultaneously claims to share their values (which I specifically list) and to support their economic class, that politician will tend to win just as Trump and Hitler won in their respective ways.

Potemkin is an admitted Stalinist, so when he includes Stalin in a list of people that are simultaneously pro-working class and share working class values of pro-religion, patriarchal, anti-gay, anti-abortion, patriotic, and ethno-cultural chauvinist. I can only assume he missed my list of these values or is being sarcastic.

B0ycey wrote:I don't make such a claim. Nor did Pote. He just made a point that this is what you get under such conditions. Stalin stood for the people that were fighting for revolution. What he achieved was not in their interests. Similar to that of your fellow Rustic-belt neighbours. But while Trump might use religion as his wolf blanket, stalin used the hatred of Tsars for his. The only difference is objective.


Once again, he is pro-Stalin, so I doubt he is arguing that Stalin is an evil that can arise under certain conditions as you are identifying with Trump and Hitler. Trump and Hitler won because they advocated not only being pro-working class, but sharing their very traditionalist values. So, if you and Potemkin are not making that claim, then you are not actually addressing anything I said in the first place.

@Decky,

Imagevia Imgflip GIF Maker

Imagevia Imgflip GIF Maker
#14870717
But....if you get a guy who claims to be pro-working class and shares their values? You get the election in 2016, or Adolf Hitler, etc.

The German rural peasantry and small-holders of the 1930s had different traditional values than present-day American rural small-holders, which are different from the traditional values of the Russian rural peasantry of the 1920s and 30s. The present-day American rural population would no more vote for Hitler than they would for Stalin, but the basic idea is the same: they will support anyone who seems to be willing to represent their material interests and traditional values. For many of the German rural small-holders, that was Hitler; and for many of the Russian rural small-holders, that was Stalin; and for many of the American rural small-holders, it's Trump. The basic idea is the same in all cases, however.
#14870718
Potemkin wrote:For many of the German rural small-holders, that was Hitler; and for many of the Russian rural small-holders, that was Stalin; and for many of the American rural small-holders, it's Trump. The basic idea is the same in all cases, however.


But if the rural-small holder were truly religious Russian Orthodox, how can it be said that Stalin held those values? Atleast Hitler claimed to be a Austro-Bavarian Catholic with Protestant sympathies and atleast Trump is claiming to support Evangelical values and causes.
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By Potemkin
#14870719
But if the rural-small holder were truly religious Russian Orthodox, how can it be said that Stalin held those values? Atleast Hitler claimed to be a Austro-Bavarian Catholic with Protestant sympathies and atleast Trump is claiming to support Evangelical values and causes.

The Russian rural peasantry may have been deeply religious, but they hated the apparatus of the Russian Orthodox Church (whom they regarded as heretics because of Nikon's reforms anyways) - the peasants loved Christ, but they hated the local priest and the pompous, luxurious Church hierarchy and its stalwart defense of Tsarist serfdom. The real Russian Orthodox Church died with Avvakum.
#14870721
Potemkin wrote:The Russian rural peasantry may have been deeply religious, but they hated the apparatus of the Russian Orthodox Church (whom they regarded as heretics because of Nikon's reforms anyways) - the peasants loved Christ, but they hated the local priest and the pompous, luxurious Church hierarchy and its stalwart defense of Tsarist serfdom. The real Russian Orthodox Church died with Avvakum.


Even if conceding these circumstances (which I have no problem doing), that doesn't mean that Stalin shared their religious values or campaigned as if he were a religious figure, as I was arguing regarding Trump and Hitler, it just means they overlooked his religious values (or lack thereof) and qualified their own because they were even more pissed at their feudal overlords and the church they viewed as going astray.

That is emphatically not what I was arguing. That draws a closer comparison to rural Catholics in France supporting the more violent and secular actors in the French Revolution than it does rural Pennsylvanians and Bavarians voting for Trump and Hitler respectively.
#14870722
Potemkin wrote:The real Russian Orthodox Church died with Avvakum.


I will also admit that I need to do more research to see if there was still popular opposition to Nikon's reforms at the time of Stalin. We are talking about a 300 year spread, it seems tough to imagine so much popular resistance remained within the church over this period of time in Russia.
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By Tainari88
#14870725
Potemkin wrote:The German rural peasantry and small-holders of the 1930s had different traditional values than present-day American rural small-holders, which are different from the traditional values of the Russian rural peasantry of the 1920s and 30s. The present-day American rural population would no more vote for Hitler than they would for Stalin, but the basic idea is the same: they will support anyone who seems to be willing to represent their material interests and traditional values. For many of the German rural small-holders, that was Hitler; and for many of the Russian rural small-holders, that was Stalin; and for many of the American rural small-holders, it's Trump. The basic idea is the same in all cases, however.


Also it is helpful to keep in mind Potemkin, that Joseph Stalin was a rural Georgian. Georgians were considered 'country bumpkins' by the Moscow elite and urban intelligentsia. He loved his mother very much and she was highly religious. Russian Orthodox and Christian and he never disrespected her traditional values. Stalin understood the fine line between his cultural upbringing and his political beliefs and how orthodox they were. He also was quite ruthless with socialists who were opposing his plans to push the Soviet Union forward as a political institution that had to industrialize at a very fast pace. I never liked how ruthless he was with opponents within the socialist camp. For me? Focus on the Nazis and the Right and unify the Left and don't be alienating potential supporters over cultural aspects and differences. The Soviet Union was vast in land and in cultural diversity. Many American people don't understand that the Soviet Union was composed of people with very different histories, ethnicities, spoken languages, religions, traditions and just about almost every cultural
difference possible. Keeping all those groups cooperating was a challenge. To say the least.

Georgians remind me of old Greeks and their ways and Latinos too. ;)
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