Do we owe reparations to LGBT? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15008495
Verv wrote:Here is a fun question...

If sexuality is fluid, wouldn't it also be generally true that there were exponentially less people that were identifying and living as homosexuals a century ago?

Monogamy, heterosexuality, etc., these are all social constructs... So, too, is any other sexuality: it is formed by people participating in the community story-telling of gender & sexual norms. Just as how people can get sucked into all manner of behaviors that are alien to us now, why should we assume that there were very large groups of sexual minorities back then..? Wouldn't it be the case that our shift in the collective consciousness and deconstruction of past social norms has generated more alternative sexuality?

Of course, we would have people on the (bogus?) Kinsey scale that would still be same gender attracted, but a significant amount of those would be able to acquire heterosexual tastes and at least live as conflicted straight people...


You could Google it and find studies that look at the effect of social acceptance on the number of people who identify as LGBTQ. I would suggest looking at studies that look at self-identification and behaviour.

I am waiting for there to now be talk of reparations for fat kids and ugly people...


I am starting to wonder if “reparations” means something different south of the border.
#15008497
Hong Wu wrote:The LGBT community has historically been targeted for a long time. If we owe other marginalized communities reparations for their past victimization, does the same logic dictate that we owe LGBT people reparations?


Dear @Hong Wu
LGBT orientation and identity are FAITH BASED.
It's like people identifying as Christian and getting harassed.
Or ATHEISTS or Muslims. This isn't genetic like race or birth gender.

INTERNAL gender identity and orientation are personal choice
similar to religious identity.

If you are going to say LGBT people have been harassed and persecuted,
then Trump voters, MAGA hat wearers, Obama voters, people for or against gay marriage,
ANYONE who has been harassed and persecuted or discriminated against
for their INTERNAL BELIEFS and expression of affiliations
would be deserving of reparations.

NOTE: as for LGBT being opposed as "unnatural mental illness or disorder"
if more research were done into spiritual healing that has helped people
change and heal from UNNATURAL sexual attractions, abuse or addictions,
this would show how some cases are NOT natural and do respond to therapy.

If LGBT want corrections to how they have been maligned,
then CHRISTIANS who have been attacked for promoting
spiritual healing to cure unwanted unnatural sexual attractions
and orientation should ALSO be vindicated by CORRECTIONS as well!

SEE below link to interview with Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt
on their effective therapy work healing people of unwanted homosexuality.

(As many Christians have suffered persecution and political discrimination for their beliefs
that homosexuality can be healed, as LGBT have suffered persecution over cases where
orientation was natural and did not change after healing therapy.)
===================
Interview – Francis Judith MacNutt – Mastering Life
updated link:
http://pneumareview.com/conversation-wi ... h-macnutt/

David: Someone has suggested that homosexuals need to have their confused orientation healed before they are allowed into the priesthood. What do you think about that?

Francis: Unfortunately, I don’t think there is that much known among the clergy as a whole about healing the homosexual. That is why we are trying to bring healing back into the church. Even with physical healing, it’s not fully understood in the population of priests that it can take place.

David: You’ve had a lot of success in your ministry with healing the homosexual. What do you do? How do you pray for a homosexual?

Francis: We’ve had some and Judith’s had more actually. She had 20 clients when she was seeing patients in Clearwater who were either homosexual or lesbian in orientation, and they were all healed. Now, it took time. I think that really needs to be said. It is mostly over a period of time and in some depth.

David: Tell a story or two of people that you minister to, Judith, in this area to illustrate how you try to help the homosexual.

Judith: The first thing that has to be said is that they must want to be healed. By and large there are a lot of homosexuals and lesbians that are very happy with their lifestyle. They have found someone that they really care about, and they want to remain in that lifestyle. So, the first thing in coming for healing is saying, Lord Jesus, help me. As in any area of our lives whether it’s weakness, sin, or whatever, we have to ask for the help of Jesus.

David: And how would you actually pray for them?

Judith: The actual prayer itself is not that much different than it would be for anybody else who is wounded in any area of their life. So many of us struggle with broken sexuality because of the way we were raised, the way we were taught, the ways our parents modeled or didn’t model healthy sexuality, because so much of our sexuality is tied up in our identity, and identity issues need to be healed in most people. Very few of us really know the true-self that God created. Most of us function out of a false-self, so getting back to the true-self and the real true sexual identity is pretty much the same process for any issue that we would work with in inner healing. It involves going back to the childhood, and finding out was the person wanted. So many people say I didn’t want a boy, I wanted a girl, or I didn’t want a girl, I wanted a boy, and so there was a rejection of their very sexual identity from the time they were born.

I was reading somewhere yesterday where it was so important to a certain couple that they have a boy, and they had eight girls, and they kept trying and trying and trying, and finally they had to adopt a boy. Well, what message did that give to the eight daughters? You have no value and you were just a mistake. So there are all kinds of identity issues in childhood; there is rejection, there is wounding, there is sexual abuse, perhaps incest, perhaps someone outside the family. But so many of the people that I worked with had real broken identities – they just didn’t know who they were in God or why they were here or where they were going. It would usually take about six months of psychotherapy, inner healing and generational healing for the person to come to a fullness of their identity.

David: It is quite common that male homosexuals haven’t had a positive or strong father figure to call them into masculinity. How do you pray for that situation?

Judith: I found it took a multifaceted approach. We would do the inner healing work with God as father and Jesus as brother coming into the masculine identity that God had already created within them. In a deep father wound we would do the prayers of God the Father becoming their father, which He is, and then healing the brokenness that relates to the earthly father – the deep longing for Abba, with the daddy figure holding and loving them, accepting rather than rejecting them, having conditional love for them. We would have them sit with God the Father and let Him hold them during the inner healing prayer. I would have them listen to the voice of God – “What is He saying to you? Is He rejecting you?” And they would always with great tears of joy say, “No. He’s telling me He loves me, but wants more for me,” and God would speak all these beautiful words of love to them, and they would start having healing dreams and healing images and visions. Once the Spirit started working in them, that would start this whole healing process.

I also asked for help within the Christian community wherever I’ve been, especially in private practice, I would ask for men from the community to come and take them under wing and take them out to dinner or take them fishing, take them biking, do whatever, have them in their home and embrace them as part of a Christian loving family. So it’s not just prayer. This is where the church needs to respond. It’s men and women stepping forward, parenting, what we would call re-parenting in psychology, and bringing them along. And the ones that were able to go through that experience were all healed.
#15008498
emilynghiem wrote:Dear @Hong Wu
LGBT orientation and identity are FAITH BASED.
It's like people identifying as Christian and getting harassed.
Or ATHEISTS or Muslims. This isn't genetic like race or birth gender.

INTERNAL gender identity and orientation are personal choice
similar to religious identity.

If you are going to say LGBT people have been harassed and persecuted,
then Trump voters, MAGA hat wearers, Obama voters, people for or against gay marriage,
ANYONE who has been harassed and persecuted or discriminated against
for their INTERNAL BELIEFS and expression of affiliations
would be deserving of reparations.

NOTE: as for LGBT being opposed as "unnatural mental illness or disorder"
if more research were done into spiritual healing that has helped people
change and heal from UNNATURAL sexual attractions, abuse or addictions,
this would show how some cases are NOT natural and do respond to therapy.

If LGBT want corrections to how they have been maligned,
then CHRISTIANS who have been attacked for promoting
spiritual healing to cure unwanted unnatural sexual attractions
and orientation should ALSO be vindicated by CORRECTIONS as well!

SEE below link to interview with Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt
on their effective therapy work healing people of unwanted homosexuality.

(As many Christians have suffered persecution and political discrimination for their beliefs
that homosexuality can be healed, as LGBT have suffered persecution over cases where
orientation was natural and did not change after healing therapy.)
===================
Interview – Francis Judith MacNutt – Mastering Life
updated link:
http://pneumareview.com/conversation-wi ... h-macnutt/

David: Someone has suggested that homosexuals need to have their confused orientation healed before they are allowed into the priesthood. What do you think about that?

Francis: Unfortunately, I don’t think there is that much known among the clergy as a whole about healing the homosexual. That is why we are trying to bring healing back into the church. Even with physical healing, it’s not fully understood in the population of priests that it can take place.

David: You’ve had a lot of success in your ministry with healing the homosexual. What do you do? How do you pray for a homosexual?

Francis: We’ve had some and Judith’s had more actually. She had 20 clients when she was seeing patients in Clearwater who were either homosexual or lesbian in orientation, and they were all healed. Now, it took time. I think that really needs to be said. It is mostly over a period of time and in some depth.

David: Tell a story or two of people that you minister to, Judith, in this area to illustrate how you try to help the homosexual.

Judith: The first thing that has to be said is that they must want to be healed. By and large there are a lot of homosexuals and lesbians that are very happy with their lifestyle. They have found someone that they really care about, and they want to remain in that lifestyle. So, the first thing in coming for healing is saying, Lord Jesus, help me. As in any area of our lives whether it’s weakness, sin, or whatever, we have to ask for the help of Jesus.

David: And how would you actually pray for them?

Judith: The actual prayer itself is not that much different than it would be for anybody else who is wounded in any area of their life. So many of us struggle with broken sexuality because of the way we were raised, the way we were taught, the ways our parents modeled or didn’t model healthy sexuality, because so much of our sexuality is tied up in our identity, and identity issues need to be healed in most people. Very few of us really know the true-self that God created. Most of us function out of a false-self, so getting back to the true-self and the real true sexual identity is pretty much the same process for any issue that we would work with in inner healing. It involves going back to the childhood, and finding out was the person wanted. So many people say I didn’t want a boy, I wanted a girl, or I didn’t want a girl, I wanted a boy, and so there was a rejection of their very sexual identity from the time they were born.

I was reading somewhere yesterday where it was so important to a certain couple that they have a boy, and they had eight girls, and they kept trying and trying and trying, and finally they had to adopt a boy. Well, what message did that give to the eight daughters? You have no value and you were just a mistake. So there are all kinds of identity issues in childhood; there is rejection, there is wounding, there is sexual abuse, perhaps incest, perhaps someone outside the family. But so many of the people that I worked with had real broken identities – they just didn’t know who they were in God or why they were here or where they were going. It would usually take about six months of psychotherapy, inner healing and generational healing for the person to come to a fullness of their identity.

David: It is quite common that male homosexuals haven’t had a positive or strong father figure to call them into masculinity. How do you pray for that situation?

Judith: I found it took a multifaceted approach. We would do the inner healing work with God as father and Jesus as brother coming into the masculine identity that God had already created within them. In a deep father wound we would do the prayers of God the Father becoming their father, which He is, and then healing the brokenness that relates to the earthly father – the deep longing for Abba, with the daddy figure holding and loving them, accepting rather than rejecting them, having conditional love for them. We would have them sit with God the Father and let Him hold them during the inner healing prayer. I would have them listen to the voice of God – “What is He saying to you? Is He rejecting you?” And they would always with great tears of joy say, “No. He’s telling me He loves me, but wants more for me,” and God would speak all these beautiful words of love to them, and they would start having healing dreams and healing images and visions. Once the Spirit started working in them, that would start this whole healing process.

I also asked for help within the Christian community wherever I’ve been, especially in private practice, I would ask for men from the community to come and take them under wing and take them out to dinner or take them fishing, take them biking, do whatever, have them in their home and embrace them as part of a Christian loving family. So it’s not just prayer. This is where the church needs to respond. It’s men and women stepping forward, parenting, what we would call re-parenting in psychology, and bringing them along. And the ones that were able to go through that experience were all healed.

Well, I have been arguing this recently actually, although I've begun to think that it can't go anywhere for some more subtle reasons. I was writing about this in the "SJWs and crazy things they do" thread mostly. I think there's a lot of similarities between this stuff and religious beliefs and what Verv wrote (that LGBT identity must also be a social construct, if cis identities are) is also pretty relevant.

As for prayer healing homosexuality, one metaphysical interpretation of these issues is that men and women each have "male" and "female" aspects to them. When someone's aspect is primarily male they become a man, primarily female and they become a woman, yet these states can be altered after birth (many homosexuals have been subjected to some form of sexual abuse which may have theoretically altered their states) and as such, the right kinds of treatment might be able to "heal" that trauma, at which point the person would in theory become a normal man or woman.

Even more subtly, there are at least two broad categories of gays (the "uber male gay" and the "effeminate gay"). It goes back to a joke where raping a burly strong man is more of a conquest than raping a woman because the man can fight back. Obviously this is not a healthy mentality but it seems remotely plausible that some of the gay men actually think in this way...
#15008663
Pants-of-dog wrote:You could Google it and find studies that look at the effect of social acceptance on the number of people who identify as LGBTQ. I would suggest looking at studies that look at self-identification and behaviour.


And all of these would be of very dubious value. It's such a new field and there is no way to study it -- especially considering how malleable humans can be to their times.

I am starting to wonder if “reparations” means something different south of the border.


So, what does reparations mean north of the border? In North Korea? :excited:

(Yes, I know what you meant, but I got to have fun sometimes.)
#15008686
Verv wrote:And all of these would be of very dubious value. It's such a new field and there is no way to study it -- especially considering how malleable humans can be to their times.


Then why did you bring it up?

So, what does reparations mean north of the border? In North Korea? :excited:

(Yes, I know what you meant, but I got to have fun sometimes.)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery
#15008704
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then why did you bring it up?



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery


Oh, then I do not really know why you would think that I am referencing something that means something different...

If LGBTQ people feel they have been discriminated against, surely, there would also be a case for fat people & ugly people being maltreated and discriminated against in job hiring and the likes.

Of course, no legal discrimination occurred against the fat and the ugly, but I imagine that being fat & ugly hurts a lot of feelings, and has resulted in lots of workplace harassment over the years. Harassment that very likely would have been covered providing such laws were ever enforced or even existed in the old days.

... And, of course, my initial statement was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, satirical, and funny.
#15008708
I have no idea why you randomly brought up fat people and ugly people.

If I recall correctly, the studies seem to show that more people identify as LGBTQ than ever before, but the percentage of people actually engaging in “deviant” behaviour has stayed about the same.
#15008736
Pants-of-dog wrote:If I recall correctly, the studies seem to show that more people identify as LGBTQ than ever before...


Serious question: What are the differences between the "L", the "G" and the "Q"?

I know women who will tell you that they are lesbians and I know women who will tell you they are gay. But men only get to be gay? That hardly seems fair that they have only one choice. And what about the "Q"? What's that about?
#15008892
BigSteve wrote:Serious question: What are the differences between the "L", the "G" and the "Q"?

I know women who will tell you that they are lesbians and I know women who will tell you they are gay. But men only get to be gay? That hardly seems fair that they have only one choice. And what about the "Q"? What's that about?


I consider "bi-curious" as more Q than either L, G or B.

IMHO including Q in this circle seems a bit too much (it somehow exploits people's confusion), and I can't help thinking that there might be someone wishing to "profit" (not necessarily material) from making a big group of people out of this.
#15008924
Patrickov wrote:I consider "bi-curious" as more Q than either L, G or B.

IMHO including Q in this circle seems a bit too much (it somehow exploits people's confusion), and I can't help thinking that there might be someone wishing to "profit" (not necessarily material) from making a big group of people out of this.


It just seems as though every time you turn around they're adding another letter to their acronym.

It's silly...
#15009554
BigSteve wrote:It just seems as though every time you turn around they're adding another letter to their acronym.

It's silly...

Yes, but if you just add an "H" for heterosexual, we're all back together under the same roof again.

The only reason "gay pride" ever existed, is because of all the manufactured shame of the Abrahamic religions that were forced down everyone's throats both in Europe and in the Americas.

Gay/Bi/Trans were just part of the normal everyday life of people in the Americas (and Europe) before these places were "improved" with behaviorism and witch-burning.
#15010576
QatzelOk wrote:Yes, but if you just add an "H" for heterosexual, we're all back together under the same roof again.

The only reason "gay pride" ever existed, is because of all the manufactured shame of the Abrahamic religions that were forced down everyone's throats both in Europe and in the Americas.

Gay/Bi/Trans were just part of the normal everyday life of people in the Americas (and Europe) before these places were "improved" with behaviorism and witch-burning.


This isn't really that true.

Plenty of Asians have always traditionally disliked homosexuality. There's thousand year old decrees in Buddhism that read much the same. Check out Damien Keown's work on this.

People just say these things because they want to preserve their White Settler fantasies.
#15010612
QatzelOk wrote:Yes, but if you just add an "H" for heterosexual, we're all back together under the same roof again.


The LGBT community would never stand for that. They have no interest in being truly inclusive or equal...
#15011760
Verv wrote:This isn't really that true.

Plenty of Asians have always traditionally disliked homosexuality. There's thousand year old decrees in Buddhism that read much the same. Check out Damien Keown's work on this.

People just say these things because they want to preserve their White Settler fantasies.

If you look into European or American (pre-columbian) societies, you will find that gay people were not discriminated against because, back then, the locals were either worshipping natural phenomena, or Greek or Roman Gods. None of these traditions are "against homosexuality."

When creating a religion, it's more important to be "popular" than to be "correct." Telling the 90% of a population (the straights) that the other 10% (the gays) are evil and not as good as the majority... is an easy way to sway people's superstitions into a class-creating religion.

Really, it's the churches that need to make amends to both the gay communities and to all the other spirtual traditions that Christianity (and Judaism, and Islam) violently and ignorantly destroyed.

(Related article: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/06/12 ... erstition/)

About re-uniting with heteros under one big roof, BigSteve wrote:The LGBT community would never stand for that. They have no interest in being truly inclusive or equal...

I am an LGBT, and I have a total interest in being truly inclusive and equal. You are describing the LGBT community "as seen on TV" which is fake news. And Fake News is all about separating people so they can be easily controlled by Fake Finance (the Fed).
#15011769
QatzelOk wrote:If you look into European or American (pre-columbian) societies, you will find that gay people were not discriminated against because, back then, the locals were either worshipping natural phenomena, or Greek or Roman Gods. None of these traditions are "against homosexuality."

When creating a religion, it's more important to be "popular" than to be "correct." Telling the 90% of a population (the straights) that the other 10% (the gays) are evil and not as good as the majority... is an easy way to sway people's superstitions into a class-creating religion.


So you would explain the injunctions against homosexuality among Buddhists and eventually Norse pagans... And, I assure you, at other times Greek pagans... as just these religions transitioning towards being a codified religion.

I guess you cuold look at primitive tribes and see their similar willingness to occasionally indulge in cannibalism, human sacrifice, torture-killing prisoners of war, etc. as other features you just get in a society before there has been moral codification, right?

[quiote]Really, it's the churches that need to make amends to both the gay communities and to all the other spirtual traditions that Christianity (and Judaism, and Islam) violently and ignorantly destroyed.

(Related article: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/06/12 ... erstition/)
[/quote]

Oh, so you want to bring back utterly primitive religious expressions and wild Shamanism, vision quests, sweat lodge drug trips, self-mutilation, etc. because it jives better with your anally oriented sexuality?

I get it, I get it.

But, I assure you, in the long run it has been Christianity that has given you your liberty to be libertine, and it would be in these tribal societies where you would soon find yourself again spiraling towards some excess.

I am an LGBT, and I have a total interest in being truly inclusive and equal. You are describing the LGBT community "as seen on TV" which is fake news. And Fake News is all about separating people so they can be easily controlled by Fake Finance (the Fed).


You are an acronym. Great!

I am a Christian.

Do you wish to be "inclusive" of me as you move in to your halls of power?

Or are inclusivity and tolerance symbols being employed by you, and the dictionary needs to be ignored..?
#15011987
About other people's religions, Verv wrote:utterly primitive religious expressions and wild Shamanism,

I guess you're suggesting that Christianaity is NOT primitive.

vision quests, sweat lodge drug trips, self-mutilation,

Self mutilation - the only truly repulsive thing on your list, is part of Christianity. Especially psychic self mutilation.

I'm going to ask you to read the article I posted above again, as it gives a very good list of the brutality and intolerance of Christianity's beginnings in Europe. It's very similar to how it was "introduced" to the First Nations in the Americas: as part of a genocide/economic pillaging operation.

The Greeks and other religions were killed in order to establish a monopoly. Christianity and Walmart are both category killers who can't compete without destroying all other community competition. And by singling out the 10% minority who are homosexual as "evil," Christianity gave an easy "pass" to the 90% who are hetero. What an great marketing job, and it only caused one tenth of the population to cower in shame for a few centuries. Nice work, marketing people.

I'm not impressed by either your Christianity, or by the way it was dictated to populations at gunpoint.
#15012872
QatzelOk wrote:I am an LGBT, and I have a total interest in being truly inclusive and equal. You are describing the LGBT community "as seen on TV" which is fake news. And Fake News is all about separating people so they can be easily controlled by Fake Finance (the Fed).


"I am an LBGT."

Which one? I don't think you can be all of them, can you? So why do you identify as such?

I'm straight as straight as a desert highway. I don't hang out with too many people from the "LGBTLMNOP" community. My knowledge of the alphabet community largely comes from what I see in the media. Let's face it, people like Jessie Smollett don't exactly help your cause. When I see idiots acting like animals, dancing on top of police cars at a gay pride parade, I'm not too inclined to think they should be given reparations for anything.

You can call it fake news if you want, but then you'd damn well better do something about changing the perception, or that "fake news" will become real...
#15012873
BigSteve wrote:Let's face it, people like Jessie Smollett don't exactly help your cause.
:roll: There is no law that says LGBTQ people can't be stupid, like everyone else.

BigSteve wrote: When I see idiots acting like animals, dancing on top of police cars at a gay pride parade, I'm not too inclined to think they should be given reparations for anything.
But if it's after a sporting event and it's done by dumbass heterosexual males, who burn cars and riot, it's completely different? :roll:

Heterosexual males, however, haven't been discriminated against, ridiculed and demeaned for decades(much longer actually), however.
#15012877
Godstud wrote: But if it's after a sporting event and it's done by dumbass heterosexual males, who burn cars and riot, it's completely different?


Not in the slightest...

Heterosexual males, however, haven't been discriminated against, ridiculed and demeaned for decades(much longer actually), however.


So, for that reason, we should allow those in the alphabet community to act like animals?
#15012885
BigSteve wrote:Not in the slightest...
There sure is a difference between dancing and burning cars, even if you're too obstinate to recognize it.

BigSteve wrote:So, for that reason, we should allow those in the alphabet community to act like animals?
Dancing is what people do to celebrate things. it is not "acting like animals". :roll: That you have to make up a name for them shows your disdain for LGBTQ people. It also shows some pretty big ignorance. Your so-called compassion for the LGBTQ community is pretty much shown to be be complete bullshit by what you write when regarding them.

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