[FiveofSwords]

@FiveofSwords

You are discussing the big Cs - Capitalism, Colonialism, and Christianity - and how they are connected, with @Pants-of-dog.

And this pops out...


This brought to mind Sombart, you countered with Weber, and I pointed out that Weber (unlike Sombart who let Deutschtum get the better of him) did not believe Capitalism is 'Jewish.'

So,

What is this point you thought we were discussing?





Reason for edits: To keep it short and simple. And that's not as easy as it looks (Note there's one difficult word). See I do think of you.

Well it's funny for me to just repeat the conversation which you should have understood the first time if you had any reading comprehension.

You mentioned a book (which of course I have read..my education does not come from youtube videos) and you said the book blamed jews for the excesses of capitalism.

I responded that no, the book was meant to explain that jews acquired disproportionate power via their control of money. This was an alternate hypothesis to weber's which was that jews acquired power simply because they were clever. In fact, the book doesn't even delve into any critiques of capitalism so it is rather silly to suggest it blames jews for them.

I even mentioned that in my own opinion many of the aspects of capitalism in the modern era were driven by necessity rather than jewish agendas. That was a point I disagreed with sombart on. So while I do think jews had massive influence over capitalism and finance, certain aspects like the stock market would have been developed even if aryans were in control rather than jews, because it simply becomes necessary.

.you responded no and just quoted some rabbi saying that sombart doesn't properly understand jewish psychology. Which of course isn't related to the point.

And even if you thought we were arguing over whether jews invented capitalism rather than over the goal of that book...which is also incorrect....a jew saying sombart doesn't understand jewish psychology is ALSO irrelevant to the claim. Even if we granted that your rabbi was totally correct and sombart doesn't understand jewish psychology, that would not demonstrate that jews did not invent capitalism.

You are just a comedy of errors.

[ingliz]

@FiveofSwords

According to two Dutchmen, the Jews did not invent capitalism. With arguments supported by recent cliometric research, they show that the Dutch did in the Late Medieval period (1350-1566).

a [J]ew saying [S]ombart doesn't understand [J]ewish psychology is ALSO irrelevant to the claim.

How is it irrelevant when Sombart keeps banging on about the "Jewish spirit"?

[Tainari88]

@FiveofSwords

According to two Dutchmen, the Jews did not invent capitalism. With arguments supported by recent cliometric research, they show that the Dutch did in the Late Medieval period (1350-1566).

I have read that the Jews would only be allowed to handle financial dealings because it was seen as beneath the nobility in Europe to do such work. They were forced to take over finances due to the way it was viewed by the elite class in many nations in Europe. In Spain the Jews lived alongside the Muslims and the Christian Roman Catholics in cities like Granada. The greatest work in Spanish literature that was El Mio Cid that was written in:

Per Abbad puts the date 1207 after his name and current thinking is that his claim to have written the work has simply been copied along with the text of an earlier manuscript now lost. The existing copy forms part of a 14th-century codex in the Biblioteca Nacional de España (National Library) in Madrid, Spain.

Wikipedia.

The Jews were tradespeople and lived in Barcelona and many other Spanish cities. There are a lot of documents of them stating that as moneylenders they were reviled and disliked. But, they tried to do other types of work. Rarely were they able to get it. In Spain the Roman Catholic King and Queen would make many Jews who converted to Christianity eat pork. Because both the Jews and Muslims were prohibited from eating pork due to religious doctrine. Spain's jamón ibérico that is world famous comes from a very Spanish tradition of making sure everyone was Roman Catholic. The test was do you eat pork yes or no?

In the New World all of the Spanish speaking nations have long traditions of pork dishes for the same reasons.

The majority of Southern Spanish peoples all had different religious faiths and got along quite well for centuries. In the Mio Cid Don Rodrigo had one of his daughters betrothed to a Muslim. Why? Political alliances.

10% of Spanish has Arabic vocabulary. One of every ten words in Spanish is Arabic in origin. The Muslims were in Spain for 800 years.

[Rich]

According to two Dutchmen, the Jews did not invent capitalism. With arguments supported by recent cliometric research, they show that the Dutch did in the Late Medieval period (1350-1566).

How was the Roman Republic not capitalism? Not only was there no nanny-state nationalised fire brigade and the like, but it was properly run by the capitalists. The big capitalists were the generals, the senior administrators, the top legal officials and the top priests. This was true capitalism, that started slipping away with the Gracchi, if not sightly before.

The social relations were about as capitalist as you could get. Sure they may have lacked some of the advanced financial technologies that started to appear in Renaissance Italy, but that was just part of a general technological backwardness not a different social political system.

[ingliz]

@Tainari88

There is a world outside of Spain and Portugal - Italy.

In the 16th century, to whom did the French and English kings entrust their financial affairs?

To the Florentine bankers, the Franzesi, the Scali, and the Frescobaldi. The Genoese financiers Grimaldi and Spinola were members of the old Genoese aristocracy that had been a mercantile oligarchy, governing a great trading empire for centuries.

It was Italians, not Jews, all the way down.

[FiveofSwords]

@FiveofSwords

According to two Dutchmen, the Jews did not invent capitalism. With arguments supported by recent cliometric research, they show that the Dutch did in the Late Medieval period (1350-1566).


How is it irrelevant when Sombart keeps banging on about the "Jewish spirit"?

Clearly you have not read the book. You have no idea what he was actually arguing or what points he raised. But anyway you are also unable to follow a conversation lol. This is all so futule.

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88

There is a world outside of Spain and Portugal - Italy.

In the 16th century, to whom did the French and English kings entrust their financial affairs?

To the Florentine bankers, the Franzesi, the Scali, and the Frescobaldi. The Genoese financiers Grimaldi and Spinola were members of the old Genoese aristocracy that had been a mercantile oligarchy, governing a great trading empire for centuries.

It was Italians, not Jews, all the way down.

Yes of course. All roads in the Romance language family lead to Rome. Literally.

The Jews though in Spain wanted to have certain professions but were often prohibited due to their religion.

Have you ever seen this TV series on Netflix? It is called La Catedral del Mar
? It is based on the history of Barcelona. The author wrote a fictional account but all the details about the Jews at the time, the rights of women, the clergy and the church from the Cathedral built by the Barcelona Catalánes from Cataluña of that historic time period was very accurate. I loved that series.

I wonder if you can find it in Malta eh? The Spanish author's name is Idelfonso Falcones. The second trailer is about the first series based on the long novel by the same author. The second one is the follow up called Los Herederos de la Tierra.

It is interesting. It was the beginning of why class conscious societies are so ROTTEN to the core.

[FiveofSwords]

How was the Roman Republic not capitalism? Not only was there no nanny-state nationalised fire brigade and the like, but it was properly run by the capitalists. The big capitalists were the generals, the senior administrators, the top legal officials and the top priests. This was true capitalism, that started slipping away with the Gracchi, if not sightly before.

The social relations were about as capitalist as you could get. Sure they may have lacked some of the advanced financial technologies that started to appear in Renaissance Italy, but that was just part of a general technological backwardness not a different social political system.

The state planned the economy. It was the state that more or less determined the price of things and quality control and standardization. That was thr norm among all civilization until recent Europe after markets replaced the guild system

[FiveofSwords]

@Tainari88

There is a world outside of Spain and Portugal - Italy.

In the 16th century, to whom did the French and English kings entrust their financial affairs?

To the Florentine bankers, the Franzesi, the Scali, and the Frescobaldi. The Genoese financiers Grimaldi and Spinola were members of the old Genoese aristocracy that had been a mercantile oligarchy, governing a great trading empire for centuries.

It was Italians, not Jews, all the way down.

FYI, there were jews in italy

[ingliz]

@Rich

The Dutchmen argue that Holland invented the institutions, financial instruments, and other gubbins necessary to move from a feudal to a capitalist society before anybody else.






@FiveofSwords

The more Som­bart turns to National Socialism, the more anti-Semitic he becomes, and the more one sees that pet­ty hos­tility towards Jews harden in his works – at one point he even wrote that he didn’t like Berlin depart­ment stores because their ​‘crass jux­ta­po­si­tions’ were a prod­uct of Jew­ish sensibilities.

How stupid is that?

[wat0n]

FYI, there were jews in italy

The families he mentioned were/are not Jewish as far as I'm aware.

[FiveofSwords]

@Rich

The Dutchmen argue that Holland invented the institutions, financial instruments, and other gubbins necessary to move from a feudal to a capitalist society before anybody else.






@FiveofSwords

The more Som­bart turns to National Socialism, the more anti-Semitic he becomes, and the more one sees that pet­ty hos­tility towards Jews harden in his works – at one point he even wrote that he didn’t like Berlin depart­ment stores because their ​‘crass jux­ta­po­si­tions’ were a prod­uct of Jew­ish sensibilities.

How stupid is that?

Dude...as you may have guessed from the fact that I do not disavow national socialism, ibr4ally do not care if a person dislikes jews. I think it should be legal to dislike jews. I don't think a person's academic work is discredited because they don't like jews. Einstein didn't like the Chinese...shall we abandon relativity? It's juvenile

[ingliz]

@FiveofSwords

A person's academic work should be discredited if that person is as 'careless' as Sombart with his evidence. With a desperately insufficient understanding of history, he supposed this and supposed that, and all his suppositions were demonstrably erroneous.

Religions have no essential or immutable character: they respond to social circumstances and are subject to radical change.

— The late Hugh Trevor-Roper, Fellow of the British Academy and former Regius Professor of Modern History at the University of Oxford

[FiveofSwords]

@FiveofSwords

A person's academic work should be discredited if that person is as 'careless' as Sombart with his evidence. With a desperately insufficient understanding of history, he supposed this and supposed that, and all his suppositions were demonstrably erroneous.

Religions have no essential or immutable character: they respond to social circumstances and are subject to radical change.

— The late Hugh Trevor-Roper, Fellow of the British Academy and former Regius Professor of Modern History at the University of Oxford

See.. you don't even know what his thesis was. You are actually talking about religion, lol. Fyi sombart did in fact focus mainly on jews who had converted to Christianity during the Spanish inquisition.

[Verv]

If you ignore the humans rights abuses and rewrite history to make it seem like a good thing, sure.

But then all you are doing is (hopefully unknowingly and inadvertently) perpetuating the same Christian belief that white people are better than Indigenous people and need to be saved.

Your last statement here makes no sense: the white Canadians who instituted the residential school system did so explicitly with the hope that it would help integrate natives into modernity and provide them with more opportunities for integration. Nobody created the system hoping it would be a disaster.

If you look at the intent, it's a noble intent.

As far as 'needed to be saved,' all people need to be saved...

What does this have to do with the fact that capitalism, racism, and colonialism are all mutually supportive of one anither?

What doesn't it have to do with capitalism, racism, and colonialism supporting each other?

[Pants-of-dog]

Your last statement here makes no sense: the white Canadians who instituted the residential school system did so explicitly with the hope that it would help integrate natives into modernity and provide them with more opportunities for integration. Nobody created the system hoping it would be a disaster.

If you look at the intent, it's a noble intent.

As far as 'needed to be saved,' all people need to be saved...

The residential school system was a human rights debacle that combined racism and colonialism, disproving the notion that baptism and philosophies of good intent will somehow defeat racism.

[Verv]

The residential school system was a human rights debacle that combined racism and colonialism, disproving the notion that baptism and philosophies of good intent will somehow defeat racism.

(1) It is impossible to please someone who believes that providing education and vocational training to the least privileged in society is necessarily racism and colonialism.

Obviously, there are very tricky questions about culture and the preservation of a way of life that go into this, but to say that it was just universally racism is odd....

(2) This is a strawman - baptism does not cure addiction, sexual vice, rage, despair.

Nobody has suggested it would solve the economic problems and the perennial issue of racial discrimination.

[Tainari88]

(1) It is impossible to please someone who believes that providing education and vocational training to the least privileged in society is necessarily racism and colonialism.

Obviously, there are very tricky questions about culture and the preservation of a way of life that go into this, but to say that it was just universally racism is odd....

(2) This is a strawman - baptism does not cure addiction, sexual vice, rage, despair.

Nobody has suggested it would solve the economic problems and the perennial issue of racial discrimination.

@Verv the issue will always be that people from different cultures just do not respect the reality that human beings in other cultural milieus and matrix find innate meaning in their own cultures. They do not have to or need, or want to assimilate into another culture.

That is what I have always found really annoying about people who assume that someone who is Latin American specifically Cuban, or Mexican or Puerto Rican or Brazilian or etc. just naturally wants to adopt Anglo ways. No, they do not. They find meaning in their reality. The culture they have is meaningful.

The issue will always be that thought that tells the people who are living in their own worlds without much need to adapt at all to other people with more power in a social and economic scale....that others need to bend to them. No, they do not.

Respect peoples' own cultural meaningfulness. There is a lot of meaning and satisfaction in each culture's ways of doing things, thinking and being from that experience and background. Never try to say--our way is better or best. Because often it never is.

People again find meaning in their own cultures. They can marry people of different cultures but it also has to be about shared value systems. Often shared values trumps language, culture, race, and many other markers of significant differences.

Being respectful often means thinking of the other culture as equal and worthy of respect and consideration in all things. Ignorance of someone else's culture that you have zero knowledge about is often the reason of why the arrogant wind up underestimating severely other people.

Another reality is that there is disagreement within a cultural matrix because again variation exists in all cultures and value systems. Thus, you might have operation Valkyrie. Where some Nazi officers plotted to kill Hitler because he was a liability for what they thought the cause of National socialism was in their minds. Differences that were about fundamental issues.

It happens in nearly all groups and cultures. Disagreement.

[ingliz]

@FiveofSwords

In the 1937 edition echoing almost verbatim the propaganda of the Nazi Party, Sombart says these Christianized Jews are still Jews because of "Volksgeist" - Volksgeist: Those “spiritual qualities” belonging to a people that can only be recognized by “the intuition of certain German philosophers.” - and the "Jewish spirit" is the exact opposite of the German.

It's all bollocks.

[Rich]

@Tainari88 Responding to your comment in another thread got me thinking. Although I believe, nay although I know that race is a real biological phenomena and know, that even those who claim it is not, really know it is,

There has never been a race war in the whole of human history. Every war of any scale has been cultural. Of course attitudes to race can be massively important, but we always fight as cultures not as races. When I was a kid and I watched westerns I always identified with the American Indians. I always wanted them to fight back and to win. Some people on the forum still express this attitude. They wish that as soon as the Indians set sight on Europeans that they had all united to throw all the European settlers into the sea. This would have been a race war, all Indians united against all Europeans. But there are no race wars, ever.

Some people think in terms of race traitors. White Supremacists believe many White people are being traitors to their race. Similarly many Black nationalist idenitarians see many Black people as being traitors to their race. But humans have always been traitors to their races. Cultures on the hand are a compleltly different matter. People have shown incredible loyalty to their cultures, people have made incredible sacrifices for their tribe / nation religion. Often displaying incredibly low rates of treachery.

Look at Britain and Germany in the first World War. How many British people said "The Germans are in the right in this war, I must be prepared to lay down my life in order to support German victory" And how many German people said "The British are in the right in this war, I must be prepared to lay down my life in order to support British victory" Very, very few in ether case. Of course people try to racialise the conflict, to portray the Germans as Teutonic militarist bullies or the British as perfidious, duplicitous and mercenary. But its all nonsense. It was a conflict between nation state formations. It had squat zero to do with the different racial characteristics of the belligerents

People are free to fantasise about race wars as much as they want, but there's never been one and there never will be one.