Is multiculturalism dead? Western media ramps up the racism - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15271789
Since people are ignoring the evidence already presented, it is hard to imagine that the new requests for even more evidence are in good faith.

@Godstud

It is perfectly possible to provide evidence for an absence of something. For example, if you wanted to show that forced sterilization of Indigenous women ended, you could cite the recent report (2021) that looked at that exact question and if that report mentions no ongoing forced sterilization, that would provide evidence for that argument.

Would you like a link to that as well?

Also, note that I have already provided a clear metric for the end of genocide: a clear and significant effort to enact the recommendations from the recent report on MMIWG. Providing evidence for such an effort would also constitute evidence for the end of genocide. I may be mistaken, but I think the recommendations have even been quoted in this thread.

Also, feel free to apologize for accusing me of having no evidence. :)
#15271792
Pants-of-dog wrote:Everyone please note that the post I am quoting is a very good example of the willful refusal to look at evidence, and that I previously claimed that this refusal is one of the causes for the disproportionate focus on Chinese genocide and an accompanying lack of focus on Western genocide.


I'm simply requesting the same thing you usually request: To cite from the source.
#15271800
@wat0n

What exactly do you want to hear about?Please be specific about what you want.

Would you like descriptions of the mass graves? Detailed accounts of the sexual abuse of children? How cops routinely drove Indigenous people out of the city in the middle of winter so they would freeze to death? First hand accounts of forced sterilizations? How easy it is to get away with murdering (and presumably raping Indigenous women and girls?

Is this the type of thing you want me to talk about with you?
#15271802
@Pants-of-dog There is still no evidence of your hyperbolic statement that there is an ongoing genocide. I showed you the very definition of genocide and it is "deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

There is no evidence that you cited that shows this, and so your statement, designed to invoke emotion, is false.
#15271809
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

What exactly do you want to hear about?Please be specific about what you want.

Would you like descriptions of the mass graves? Detailed accounts of the sexual abuse of children? How cops routinely drove Indigenous people out of the city in the middle of winter so they would freeze to death? First hand accounts of forced sterilizations? How easy it is to get away with murdering (and presumably raping Indigenous women and girls?

Is this the type of thing you want me to talk about with you?


Something that was ongoing in 2019.

So?
#15271810
@wat0n

Your efusal to clarify your position or to address the evidence already presented shows that you are not arguing in good faith.

@Patrickov

There is no indication I misinterpreted the report. @Godstud has had ample opportunities to look at and address the evidence and provide other interpretations.
#15271812
So tell me what the current death toll is on this "ongoing genocide". If you can't do that, then you're simply LYING and the information you get is erroneous, regardless of who is compiling it.

Is there ongoing discrimination? I will not dispute that. Pretending it's genocide, however, is a bold-faced lie, and diminishes the actual meaning of the word, in the same way as if you called it a 'Holocaust'.
#15271818
@Godstud

During the Nazi-led Holocaust, it would have been impossible to attain accurate numbers of the death toll. Even now, it would be impossible to give you the current death toll. Since no one can you give the exact number of deaths, and that is what you have decided is the standard, we can logically assume that you think the Holocaust was a lie.

Is that the case, or are you willing to admit that your standard of evidence would exclude the vast majority of genocides?
#15271821
Pants-of-dog wrote:During the Nazi-led Holocaust, it would have been impossible to attain accurate numbers of the death toll. Even now, it would be impossible to give you the current death toll. Since no one can you give the exact number of deaths, and that is what you have decided is the standard, we can logically assume that you think the Holocaust was a lie.

Is that the case, or are you willing to admit that your standard of evidence would exclude the vast majority of genocides?



The Holocaust was supported to have a lower-bound figure. What's uncertain was merely the exact number, but the lower-bound figure and the Nazis' intentions suffice to prove their guilt.

Apparently you are the Holocaust denier here.
#15271825
Since we are at the point where I am being called a genocide denier because I am the only one not denying the ongoing genocide, we are now in doublespeak territory and my tools of logic and evidence are no longer useful.

I will note, however, that none of you have been able to put forth a definition of genocide that includes Chinese atrocities but excludes Canadian crimes against humanity.
#15271830
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Your efusal to clarify your position or to address the evidence already presented shows that you are not arguing in good faith.


I simply want to learn the evidence showing Canada is committing genocide right now.

I am asking you to quote from your source, as you usually do when provided with sources.
#15271837
@Pants-of-dog thank you, although what you quoted does not mention any specific instances of current actions by Canada that would amount to genocide. Instead, it claims it is ongoing because of the consequences of past policies like residential schools and the like:

...

c) Canada’s Policies as Elements of the Actus Reus

The unique nature of colonial genocide, perpetrated by a state through the establishment and maintenance of policies over lengthy periods of times, implies a pattern of “domination and dehumanization”94 which enable a myriad of genocidal acts to take place. The National Inquiry does not intend to elaborate on all of the elements of the genocidal actus reus that took place in Canada over the years in application of state policies. The National Inquiry is not a tribunal nor a court of justice and could not directly hear the considerable body of evidence this assessment would require. However, genocidal acts permeate the thousands of testimonies heard by the National Inquiry in the course of its mandate.

Stories of violence against women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA people are rooted in past events and refer to the lasting, generational consequences of these events. Testimonies of survivors suggest that colonial structures and policies, “evidenced notably by the Indian Act, the Sixties Scoop, residential schools and breaches of human and Indigenous rights, [directly led] to the current increased rates of violence, death, and suicide in Indigenous populations.”95

In particular, truths heard by the National Inquiry shed light on “deaths of women in police custody; [Canada’s] failure to protect Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA people from exploitation and trafficking, as well as from known killers; the crisis of child welfare; physical, sexual, and mental abuse inflicted on Indigenous women and girls in state institutions; the denial of Status and membership for First Nations; the removal of children; forced relocation and its impacts; purposeful, chronic underfunding of essential human services; coerced sterilizations; and more.”96 The National Inquiry considers that those acts, in addition to numerous others and those mentioned below in the mens rea section, qualify as elements of the actus reus of genocide as defined above.

It further notes that its findings are consistent with those of previous commissions established by the Canadian state, such as the 1991 Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the 1996 Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, the 2001 Aboriginal Justice Implementation Commission and the 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Within their respective mandates, these commissions highlighted past and current forms of violence perpetrated by the Canadian state against Indigenous peoples, as well as the lasting effects of the colonial policies and structures maintained until now. The lack17 of implementation of many, if not most, of their recommendations is further evidence of Canada’s continuing violation of its international obligation not to commit genocide. These prohibited conducts, which match one or more of the prohibited acts within the definition of genocide, coupled with the specific intent to destroy discussed in the next section, leads the National Inquiry to conclude that there are serious reasons to believe that Canada is responsible for committing genocide against Indigenous peoples. 18

...


Having all sorts of social issues or even policing issues is not the same as committing genocide, even if they arose from a past genocide. This would be akin to claiming the Holocaust is still ongoing, because the global Jewish population is still, in 2023, below what it was in the 1930s.

In fact, the only concrete, specific examples of genocidal actions you sent me are from 100+ years ago:

...

...As examples of documented factual occurrences, throughout the 1700s, colonial troops participated in “biological warfare”133 by distributing blankets infested with the smallpox virus throughout Indigenous communities, “with the effect of reducing the populations of specific Indigenous Nations by upwards of 50 percent.”134 In the 1750s, scalping bounties were offered in Nova Scotia, by legal proclamation, to entice and reward the murder of its Indigenous peoples, the Mi’kmaq.135 Many other Indigenous nations were persecuted and murdered, including the Beothuk who are believed to have been completed eliminated by the late 1820s.136

In addition to the premeditated killing of Indigenous peoples, there existed egregious colonial policies that caused serious bodily and mental harm to Indigenous peoples and deliberately inflicted conditions of life on Indigenous communities calculated to bring about their physical destruction. In the 1870s, colonial troops “denied food as a means to ethnically cleanse a vast region from Regina to the Alberta border as the Canadian Pacific Railway took shape.”137 In the 1880s, government-sanctioned residential schools were created and Indigenous children were forcibly removed from their families to face starvation, deliberate infection of diseases, beating,24 torture, rape, solitary confinement, assaults and ill-treatment within the Indian residential school system. In the early 1900s, government doctors subjected Indigenous children to inhumane medical experiments at the residential schools, including purposefully exposing healthy children to children infected with tuberculosis, which “led to mortality rates of 30 to 60 percent amongst the children who were forced to attend those schools.”138

These historical policies are appalling in their systematic destruction of Indigenous communities, but what is more appalling is that many of these policies continue today under a different guise. The National Inquiry’s findings expose contemporary policies that are clearly linked to the colonial era and ongoing colonial violence, demonstrating a “manifest pattern” attributable to present-day Canadian state conduct with Indigenous communities. This conduct includes both proactive measures to destroy, assimilate, and eliminate Indigenous peoples,139 as well as omissions by the Canadian government to ensure safety, equality, and access to essential services which have had direct, life-threatening consequences on Indigenous communities, in particular on women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA people.

...


All of that is indeed despicable, but those policies are not currently in place. The most recent one, residential schools to assimilate indigenous children, ended in 1997 with the closing of the last school.
#15271843
Please note that the quoted text also clearly discusses the limits of the inquiry and is not to be considered as the same as a guilty verdict in a court of law.

That does not change the fact that the testimonials and examples of systemic and lethal acts and omissions constitute evidence for the claim of genocide as demanded.

Are the new goalposts : "enough evidence to convince reluctant online persona that a court case would invariably win"?
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