[XogGyux]

@Pants-of-dog
Care to make an argument?

[wat0n]

Please prove that Cuba is a dictatorship.

There is no division of powers, which is how all dictatorships work.

[Pants-of-dog]

There is no division of powers, which is how all dictatorships work.

Prove it.

[XogGyux]

Prove it.

Dude wtf. Prove that water is not wet.
Sometimes you get really silly.

[Pants-of-dog]

Dude wtf. Prove that water is not wet.
Sometimes you get really silly.

Single H2O molecules that are not in contact with other water molecules are not wet, since the definition of “wet” means to be in contact with water.

Now if you want to help @wat0n with his two claims, please feel free.

[XogGyux]

Single H2O molecules that are not in contact with other water molecules are not wet, since the definition of “wet” means to be in contact with water.

Now if you want to help @wat0n with his two claims, please feel free.

So you think the ocean is not wet?

[wat0n]

Prove it.

Has the Cuban government ever lost a lawsuit in Cuban courts since the 1960s?

How many representatives from the opposition have positions in the Cuban legislative branch?

[XogGyux]

Has the Cuban government ever lost a lawsuit in Cuban courts since the 1960s?

How many representatives from the opposition have positions in the Cuban legislative branch?

Nah... apparently Fidel was running the country so well, that he was elected democratically to stand for 5 decades, and then he passes his role, not unlike a king, to his brother. Because despite the nonsensical headbanging of @QatzelOk against colonial systems and class wars... the fact that Cuba is happens to have a quasi-monarch does not seem to raise a flag for him. Not the one party system.... I cannot get my family of 5 to agree on a restaurant to have dinner but you gonna tell me that 609 people "unanimously" votes for Castro? It is foking ridiculous. Even Russia knows to alter the referendums to make it seem plausible. The Castro dynasty ruled the island for 6 decades, ever so slightly moving into economic decadence, but they get unanimous votes? of 600+ deputies? Seriously? The internet cannot decide whether the dress is black and blue or gold and white... the internet cannot decide if it is laurel or yanny? my brother and my mom cannot decide if they want italian or greek... but 609 deputies unanimously decide the castro's dynasty is worth half a century? And @Pants-of-dog doesnt smell anything fishy with that? He is not that much of a fool, he is being deliberately obtuse on this.

[Potemkin]

So you think the ocean is not wet?

The concept of something being ‘wet’ is only valid macroscopically, @XogGyux. On the level of atoms and molecules, there is no such concept. And since the macroscopic ocean is ultimately composed only of lots and lots of individual water molecules, it logically follows that the concept of being ‘wet’ is just an illusion. QED.

SCIENCE FTW!!!

[XogGyux]

The concept of something being ‘wet’ is only valid macroscopically, @XogGyux. On the level of atoms and molecules, there is no such concept. And since the macroscopic ocean is ultimately composed only of lots and lots of individual water molecules, it logically follows that the concept of being ‘wet’ is just an illusion. QED.

SCIENCE FTW!!!

It is hilarious that the fact that I just used a rhetorical tool just flew over both of your heads and you just jumped to offer your opinion on this offtopic nonsense. You are wrong in your analysis, water is a particular state of matter of H2O molecules, we are not talking about a single molecule, you cannot call a single molecule water, you don't have the bonds and temperature (which is the average kinetic energy of material), therefore you don't have water. Its like calling a person a country.

Furthermore, just take your point towards its logical conclusion. If you can demonstrate that water is not wet... then the ocean is not wet, because the ocean is water

[Potemkin]

It is hilarious that the fact that I just used a rhetorical tool just flew over both of your heads and you just jumped to offer your opinion on this offtopic nonsense. You are wrong in your analysis, water is a particular state of matter of H2O molecules, we are not talking about a single molecule, you cannot call a single molecule water, you don't have the bonds and temperature (which is the average kinetic energy of material), therefore you don't have water. Its like calling a person a country.

Furthermore, just take your point towards its logical conclusion. If you can demonstrate that water is not wet... then the ocean is not wet, because the ocean is water

What we call “reality” is just an emergent property of matter and space-time on macroscopic scales. At the most fundamental level, the basic concepts of what we call “reality” break down. We live our lives in a dream-world.

[Tainari88]

@XogGyux I am getting ready to take my kid to school soon. I want to come back to your arguments later on. Because I think it is good to discuss with some objectivity the lack of political choices that exists in present-day Cuba.

I always go back to the context of history that a nation is forged in. i love history. So I did study Cuban history. Puerto Rico and Cuba's flags are similar because they were conceived in the late 19th century. The struggle back then with Jose Marti in Cuba was about liberating Cuba from Spanish control. The US went to war with Spain for what purpose? Because of the USS Maine....many historians know that the Maine might have been attacked by the same USS government. The Yellow Press through the Hearst Empire (periodismo amarillista), had to make up the offense as something that challenged the USA to 'liberate' Cuba, the Phillipines and Puerto Rico and Guam....if you study history the motivations for invading these lands are not innocent or about defending democracy as a political system in other nations. If you argue against that the evidence is very strong against such argumentation Xog.

So? What happens to societies that are invaded, and their lands are occupied for the express purpose of extraction and control by foreign powers? Colonialism. A concept that the USA experienced in its revolutionary war. The war for independence from England. In the late 18th century. The century of the Age of Enlightenment in Europe. Where Europe was wanting to get away from monarchies and theological rulers. The Age of Englightment wanted a new society, yet they used an old model from the Classical Period in Greek history. The concept of democracy. It was an old Roman concept but the Romans had Empire. They had a senate and citizens and slaves. Both. What is my point? that the USA formed itself on the concept of democracy and a constitution free of kings and queens, or rulers for life. They wanted no part of that rotten system that most fled from in the European systems. But they engaged in imperial expansion in the late 19th century. Something many of the old Empires in Europe had been engaged in doing for a very long time. .They wanted power to control, and expand. That is what the Indian wars were about @XogGyux expand the territories, develop the infrastructure, repopulate the land with new immigrants from Europe.Restructure a new society. One in which monarchies would not be allowed.

So, the concept of these democratic ideals spread like wildfire. All over the New World. The USA was the example. Spain had rebellion everywhere. Most of her former colonies won their independence and adopted the US style of democracy. Freedom from European dictatorships from afar.

Where am I going with this? Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines were islands that were strategic points on the map for controlling maritime ways and access to South America, Mexico, Central America, and in the case of the Phillipines and Guam access to China, Japan, VIetnam, and all of Asia Xog. So? Do you respect the heritage of American style democracy or do you reproduce the power dynamics of the European monarchies and Imperial history? The USA with its behavior in the 19th century chose to reproduce an imperial expansion history.

They betrayed their foundational principles. Why? For the Robber Barons of Capitalism and the Industrial age. For profit. Period. They subjugated all of the last colonies in the Americas left to the Spanish crown for profit. Not to liberate us ever. That was a lie.

How did Cuba cope with a very powerful neighbor wanting to do the same that Spain wanted to do Cuba? Thed had to live through puppet dictators. One of them in a string of them was Fulgencio Batista. Castro was never the choice for puppet. Ever. In fact, most people thought Castro would be killed in prison by Batista's backers and the US government really thought they could control everything in Cuba easily. If they get rid of Batista they can replace him with another thug life buffoon. The important thing was to keep the sugar centrales rolling and the casinos and the profits and so on. Rural Cuba was severely neglected.

The point is the USA was hypocritical in its intentions. Always. If you are a true politician you really do have to see both sides of a political story. You see the side of a totalitarian Leftist spouting dictatorship always sounding alarms about an imminent Yankee invasion that never arrived in your lifetime and happend in the Bay of Pigs. A lifetime ago for such a young man. You came to the states at age 18. You came from educated Cubans. A family of doctors. Sick of all the inefficiencies, lies about how wonderful the system of medical service was in Cuba. You wanted first world style facilities, salaries, and a real sense of being empowered to serve the Cuban people like they did in the great USA. Where there are decent salaries for doctors, lots of supplies, and public health clinics and private clinics. Choices. Not some sham of a system struggling with access to basic meds and basic tools and $25 dollar a month salaries. Taxi drivers make more in Havana than doctors do. I understand that.

Cuba had a choice, do we give up our need for independence in order to get USA Yankee investment through their banks and their currency and their control of our Cuban economy. They can intervene on our behalf if we are invaded by a European power again....we can prosper with capitalism and importing American style machinery, cars, goods and services. We will remain fairly poor. But only the rural Cubans and the illiterates. Maybe have the beaches segregated with Black Afro Cubans prohibited from the beaches and the casinos and social clubs. Or we can fight and shape our own society as we want it to be. We fought hard in the 1860s with Jose Marti. We lost a lot of Cubans in that war for independence. Cuba's war for independence was very very bloody and long.

What to do? They made the choice. Fight for getting rid of the puppet dictator. Go for revolution. Once Castro was in many Cubans thought, we will get democracy, choices, voting freedoms of many choices. Majority rule. Castro came in on January 1,1959. The Cuban Missile crisis happened in 1961. Because the Americans did not want Castro in charge. He was a Communist. And Communism was not allowed in the New World. Why? The USA got rid of their commies in the 1950s with the McCarthy hearings. The Soviet Union was a threat. They reached the Space Race first. Sputnik and so on. Some loose federation or union of differing states banding together to create some huge land mass and Stalin the Horror industrializing the SU by force of brutal means....but they developed into an industrial power and rivaled the USA for some kind of control of vast land masses. They had to make an example of the little island that did not obey them. Or lose their image of control. A control that is based on a discarded model of European Greed from the monarchies and theologically based societies from the past in Europe, that they had wanted to eliminate. Falling into the trap of the illsuion of being able to control the world.

Cuba's reaction to holding on to their hard fought Marti independence? Was to become intolerant of dissent. Why? Because the USA is very very powerful. Manipulate candidates, intervene and threaten, send troops in to impose the political stance they want to happen to their satellite colonies. In their ambitions to control the world.

Xog thinks that kind of system of intolerance is intolerable. It is. But Cuba did not have the USA's history. But today? The fascist element that the USA developed by betraying that Radical Leftist constitution from the Age of Enlightenment is being threatened. Why? Due to the same Robber Baron capitalist who wanted to control the world and dominate little island nations in order to expand and grow more profits. It is not about freedom anymore XogGyux. It is about changing that mentality of control and domination of other places, other people, once and for all. And start the process of respecting our differences, our histories and our right to exist and to be different from the ambitions of greed. Of endless consumption and endless expansion. To be satiated with what we got. To start putting limits on the fish we get out of the ocenas, the water we get from the earth and the rivers, etc and the kinds of crops we grow. We need to really respect nature and our limits.

And the constant imperialism doesn't work over the long haul. Not for Cuba. Not for Puerto Rico. Not for Ukraine, Not for anyone really. Got to see all these small nations as equals and human. That is it. Don't abuse your power. Whether you are the USA, Cuba, Russia, PRC, etc.

It all starts with placing limits on our control issues.

As for @QatzelOk he was born and raised in some suburb by people who valued things he never valued. Q is a non conformist. In almost every aspect of his life. He does not value money and capitalism. His parents probably did. For him? Cuba since it is severely limited in materialism and buying power? It is basically banned from banking and international trade. It is not allowed to trade openly with Cuba and Cuba has CUC pesos but no one hardly accepts that worthless currency. If you are not part of the international banking cartel? You will be starved out. Literally. No medical supplies and equipment like XogGyux mentioned about Cuban shortages in another thread on Cuba. So Cuba is isolated from trade. They come up with schemes to get around it. Mexico is one of the few nations that accepts CUC pesos.

it also accepts Cubans. They usually don't want to stay or some do stay and settle in Mexico. Like the doctors I mentioned. But most want to be what XogGyux has become. A US practicing doctor. WHo is going to live a good middle class and above life. With the consumer goods and the ability to write on the internet and do a lot of things that in Cuba was never allowed.

The issue I have with XogGyux is he should realize that Cubans are in a struggle to retain control over their own island. Because they lived through two Empires wanting them to just GIVE IN. Just give in. Just allow control from afar.

Why struggle at all? My answer is that struggle is LIFE. Never give up on a better life. Never give up on being true to your own human worth. Being poor is not shameful. Being wealthy and powerful and wanting what doesn't belong to you and using guns and money to force it? Is shameful.

That is all.

[Pants-of-dog]

, you cannot call a single molecule water, you don't have the bonds and temperature (which is the average kinetic energy of material), therefore you don't have water.

No. A molecule is the smallest block of matter that displays the characteristics and properties of whatever it is.

A water molecule is, by definition, the smallest unit of water possible.

Since you and @wat0n are not providing evidence, I will go back to observing this thread fir the time being.

[XogGyux]

@Tainari88
The US also had struggles for its own independence against its colonial master. Cuba is not unique in this respect, and there is good evidence to suggest that the US served as a model for other colonies to follow, a blueprint of the sorts and an inspiration.
Now, if you go through history you will find plenty of times that the US has fucked up badly, but... as a general rule, the main actions of the US have been to advance the safety and well-being of its citizens. Granted, at some points, they have done so at the expense of the safety and well-being of other nation's citizens. That is not optimal to say the least, and it won't win you any friends in the international community, but that is what governments are supposed to do. Just like you would put your children above and beyond the safety of other people.
Furthermore, the US by design has a built-in system that allows for constant correction of its mistake. The fact that the US is in a constant period of elections almost always assures that new fresh people will come back later and they might have a different perspective on old problems. Are there mistakes? Sure they are... look at the disastrous wars of Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam... look at the election of Trump. But we readily recognize those deficiencies, and sometimes we are able to correct them.

This is something that dictatorships do not have. Cuba, like many other dictatorships... everything revolves around the central personality in the lead and/or the political ideology. Their actions are tainted by what must be done to satisfy the wishes of the leader rather than what it is best for its people. If you think projecting your power to remain top dog like the US does is shameful... what do you think about a people that is oppressed not by other countries but by their own leaders and by the own twisted obcession and ideologies of a cultish-like political system?
The fact of the matter, Fidel got on a pissing contest with the US out of spite, but he was weak, he was the leader of a tiny country. So in order to do what he truly wanted to do, he made his bet and got in bed with the Soviets so that he could wield some power. The problem is.... he bet on the wrong Dog and fucked up big. But did he correct his course when it became obvious? No... he doubled down while his people continued to suffer. If you think the US is shameful for having a colonial-like behavior towards some small islands... tell me, it does not bother you when a dictator/political party is destroying its own people from within? Isn't that even more shameful? When a leader represses its own people, when a leader takes a gamble and gets in bed with the russians to put NUKES on a tiny island that now becomes a target to the big dog 90miles across the pond? When a leader sells out your nation's doctors to other nations as a propaganda and/or money-making scheme at the expense of health shortages in your island.... When a leader puts your kids to work on a potato field and transports them on sub-par trains that get de-railed killing kids? When your leaders prevent you from leaving the country unless it is their terms. Isn't that shameful?
We need to be pragmatic about the situation. The US is not a saint, the US is not an angel and certainly, the US has committed atrocities throughout its history. But likewise... the same also applies to Cuba. Just because the Cuban government has put itself as an adversary to the US... does not guarantee that they are on the right... this is not a dichotomy, both the US and Cuba can be wrong AT THE SAME TIME.
Cuba and its disastrous policies have destroyed its capital, its infrastructure and education. Those that support cuba today do so for the wrong reasons... out of pity or out of ideological fantasy (such as @QatzelOk ) and not because there is something objectively good out of its political system. The Cuban government is a massive failure and their political ideology is ruining the country.

[XogGyux]

No. A molecule is the smallest block of matter that displays the characteristics and properties of whatever it is.

A water molecule is, by definition, the smallest unit of water possible.

Oh nice... we have a physics expert.
So your conclusion, the ocean is not wet? It is hilarious how you can take such a deep, fierce dive into a completely meaningless rhetorical statement and come up with absurd justifications.

[Tainari88]

As for @Pants-of-dog I think he has problems with @wat0n and his argumentation because @wat0n has very little substance when he argues. He is educated and he is smart. But he lacks bringing decent evidence and he is always lying about something. He identifies with power. Money, profit and success. He lives in Chicago and or lived there....and he went to the USA to make money. He doesn't want to deal with Chile as a political entity. Who knows if he liked that fucking Pinochet nightmare dictatorship? Or just doesn't give a flying you know what. The important thing is to be successful. Make money. Kiss up to whoever is in power. Like the grand, scheming opportunist vendido he is.

Pants is a leftist, and a son of Chilean parents that backed Allende. I doubt he will ever respect a vendido from Chile in Chicago. I wouldn't.

But if Wat0n were a better debater and stop fabricating weak ass arguments maybe he could get Pants to care about his cheap attempts at debate.

I lost respect for you @wat0n when you started the bullshit about Latino culture (from Latin America) being a cultural defect. because Anglos are not into dictatorships...they got real values. Not caudillismo. i replied, "It is about a fight for power. It is human. Not a Latino defect. That is racist argumentation from a bunch of asshole racists trying to manipulate what happens in Latin American political life." Where is the evidence? The Anglo led coup against FDR where the USMC General Smedley Butler testified before congress that the rich Capitalists wanted to have him and other generals take over the presidency and do a coup and oust Roosevelt and put in some puppet. They are Anglos? Aren't they supposed to be immune from Latino style corrupt politics. Apparently not. It is human power issues. Not about culture. Lost the argument Wat0n did.

After that I thought? Wat0n is a drone spouting whatever the Yankee Right wing from financial success land dictates. He doesn't think for himself.

The sign of a vendido for sure.

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88
The US also had struggles for its own independence against its colonial master. Cuba is not unique in this respect, and there is good evidence to suggest that the US served as a model for other colonies to follow, a blueprint of the sorts and an inspiration.
Now, if you go through history you will find plenty of times that the US has fucked up badly, but... as a general rule, the main actions of the US have been to advance the safety and well-being of its citizens. Granted, at some points, they have done so at the expense of the safety and well-being of other nation's citizens. That is not optimal to say the least, and it won't win you any friends in the international community, but that is what governments are supposed to do. Just like you would put your children above and beyond the safety of other people.
Furthermore, the US by design has a built-in system that allows for constant correction of its mistake. The fact that the US is in a constant period of elections almost always assures that new fresh people will come back later and they might have a different perspective on old problems. Are there mistakes? Sure they are... look at the disastrous wars of Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam... look at the election of Trump. But we readily recognize those deficiencies, and sometimes we are able to correct them.

This is something that dictatorships do not have. Cuba, like many other dictatorships... everything revolves around the central personality in the lead and/or the political ideology. Their actions are tainted by what must be done to satisfy the wishes of the leader rather than what it is best for its people. If you think projecting your power to remain top dog like the US does is shameful... what do you think about a people that is oppressed not by other countries but by their own leaders and by the own twisted obcession and ideologies of a cultish-like political system?
The fact of the matter, Fidel got on a pissing contest with the US out of spite, but he was weak, he was the leader of a tiny country. So in order to do what he truly wanted to do, he made his bet and got in bed with the Soviets so that he could wield some power. The problem is.... he bet on the wrong Dog and fucked up big. But did he correct his course when it became obvious? No... he doubled down while his people continued to suffer. If you think the US is shameful for having a colonial-like behavior towards some small islands... tell me, it does not bother you when a dictator/political party is destroying its own people from within? Isn't that even more shameful? When a leader represses its own people, when a leader takes a gamble and gets in bed with the russians to put NUKES on a tiny island that now becomes a target to the big dog 90miles across the pond? When a leader sells out your nation's doctors to other nations as a propaganda and/or money-making scheme at the expense of health shortages in your island.... When a leader puts your kids to work on a potato field and transports them on sub-par trains that get de-railed killing kids? When your leaders prevent you from leaving the country unless it is their terms. Isn't that shameful?
We need to be pragmatic about the situation. The US is not a saint, the US is not an angel and certainly, the US has committed atrocities throughout its history. But likewise... the same also applies to Cuba. Just because the Cuban government has put itself as an adversary to the US... does not guarantee that they are on the right... this is not a dichotomy, both the US and Cuba can be wrong AT THE SAME TIME.
Cuba and its disastrous policies have destroyed its capital, its infrastructure and education. Those that support cuba today do so for the wrong reasons... out of pity or out of ideological fantasy (such as @QatzelOk ) and not because there is something objectively good out of its political system. The Cuban government is a massive failure and their political ideology is ruining the country.

[noemon]

Cuba has proven that capitalism is a far better system than Cuba's, and not just for the "rich" but for the poor and for everyone in between as well.

[Tainari88]

@XogGyux I am having a big problem with the quote button lately on this computer. I got to see if it can be fixed. I would prefer to quote you directly.

I also got to do an interpretation very soon. So I am rushed. But essentially the US constitution was imitated by many nations in Latin America. But the truth is you can't excuse imperialism at all Xog. Not if you believe in a government for the people by the people. That means you should not interfere in countries that elect leadership that differs from your own. Does the US interfere in monarchies like Thailand? No. Does it interfere with capitalist Royal family human rights violating countries like Saudi Arabia? No. It interferes in Vietnam, China, Cuba, Korea and divided that nation in two, and had a cold war with the Communist supposed spouters. Communist theory is based on getting to a classless society. Enough for everyone and getting rid of the haves and the have nots of capitalist production. Dictatorship of the working class. Working class people in control of government ONLY. Not capitalists and the wealthy and the plutocracy running the show in supposedly benevolent liberal democracies.

So you would go for Cuban imperialism if Cuba got that power someday? Invade the other islands of the Caribbean for more wealth? When most Cubans got new Nissans or Marti sedans in the driveway? Big homes and fancy beach vacations in Rio de Janeiro? Go and invade Panama....Mexico. Invade to get more bucks. That is what normal governments should do. Wars are expensive and no one wants to send their sons and daughters to die in wars for oil or riches. It should be about democracy, freedom, justice, and love for other cultures and other people's rights no? It is not. It is about bullshit lies and profits and greed. And they are dismal failures once they go and invade and dictate. No one likes snobs and dictatorships from foreign people who are hypocrites and don't even follow their own constitutions. If you got a good propaganda machine XogGyux? You can brainwash a lot of people and get them to believe the drivel that is sold as "Freedom". But when the actions are about fucking other people in other countries over and creating chaos and crime and disorder and bad governments? The people living in those bad governance places FLEE. They pack their bags and go somewhere else. Why? who wants to live all that shit XogGyux? People want a job, a house, a car, and some money in the bank. An education for their kids. Not battles between power groups that make their lives a living hell.

Can the US take in all the poor in Latin America about 455 million people? No it can't. So why doesn't it stop the hypocrisy and invest instead of trillions in wars that lead to nowhere into water treatment plants, new schools, equipment and meds for doctors, clinics, and do cooperation pacts with all of Latin America and be a real example of freedom and love for all? Because Capitalism is about competition and dominating and power trips of the plutocrats. They don't give a shit about poverty and hardship of the working class or the regular people trying to survive in these horrible conditions.

Unless that is resolved they will continue to rape the Earth and fuck over anyone in their way. If you keep justifying the unjustifiable we are going to lose...all of us. Why doesn't the USA just take a nuke and BOMB Havana. Just blow up those fucking Cubans with their stupid system? That will end the conflict once and for all? Do it. because you either conform to capitalism and banks and Yankee needs to dictate or you have to die.

What is the solution? No. Get rid of the embargo, allow trade, allow visits, and tourism, and start doing humanitarian projects. Open dialogue. And allow real respectful dialog to happen. Not dictatorial shit that is against the part of the USA constitution that says government for the people by the people.

Start living their values and not talking shit to the wind. That is what needs to happen.

[Tainari88]

Cuba has proven that capitalism is a far better system than Cuba's, and not just for the "rich" but for the poor and for everyone in between as well.

The USA's eight hour days, banning child labor, getting the wages up, unemployment insurance and all the things that balance out a rawhide Capitalist system was pushed by the socialists Noemon. The capitalists never want to pay their workers fairly. That has to be fought and hard. Capitalism if left without pressure from a very far LEFT becomes a society where work or starve is the norm. And Latin America has work or starve. It doesn't work Noemon. Capitalism does some things well, standardizing production, and mass markets.

But think about it? If you had a USA near Greece and the Greeks had to give up control of Greece in order to have a capitalist consumption society that works according to you? But without any socialist elements that make a safety net happen when the capitalist banks abuse their power, etc? Let the people work or starve they will give in to the banks and low wages.

Would you give up Greek independence and become a colony of the UK or a colony for extraction and fuck having control of your own country? Yes or no?

That is what the issue is for Latin America. Now and in the past. Give up control. Let the USA Yankees profit and the banks too. Never get any safety net. Under the gun. Poverty and crime. Suck it up. because only the powerful have rights.

I don't accept that Noemon. Not in my lifetime.