BTW my comment on the dictatorship was expressing a knowledge in history.
I understood what you meant Red. It was pretty clear.
Yeah, it is an excuse. And you're attempts at villifying me by implying that I was insulting yours or others intelligence is quite weak.
Well we can go round and round on this but what's the point? It's not an excuse, we dont need to make excuses. Frankly I was insulted so to claim that I am merely villifying you is a bit patonizing.
I said that people either don't know (which makes sense since the US would prefer they didn't), or they prefer not to believe, and therefor ignore. Intellighence has nothing to do with it, although it gets confused with knowledge very often. I did not even claim which was the case with you, as I don't know you well enough.
Ah the ole "conspiracy theory" stuff, then... Show me proof of some other motive that's not corrupted by bias and I will take what you say more seriously.
Economics. Cold hard numbers
Ok you mean oil then. I figured as much. This is only true if we form the United States of Iraq. Which we won't. We can get oil more cheaply some other way than taking over ruined third world countries.
so all sorts of reasons get "invented" to get a rise out of the populace
Yeah I hear ya, its such a stretch to think that eliminating a cruel dictator with ties of some kind to the terrorists who perpetrated 9/11 is far fetched.
The US's economy has been hurting since 2000, and really badly in 2002. It hadn't been this bad is a long time, and the leaders are getting scared. They also are quite aware of the oil peak that is coming and want to be on top of that because they know competition is going to be fierce, and bloody. They probably consider it "humane" that they control the region, oh, sorry, "maintain stability" so that there is less bloodshed later. All just to keep the American lifestyle at its wasteful, consumerist peak for a few years longer.
Uh...Just because the econonmy isn't growing at a record pace doesn't mean our economy is hurting. In fact it has been growing since the recession ended about a year ago, just at a slow rate. Hardly the gloom and doom you predict.
By the way the Dow is somewhere around 8000 which is such an amazing figure that it's hard to comprehend. I could give you a brief history of the Dow, since the fifties but suffice it to say that while it has dropped from its all time high it is still significant, and is hardly in trouble of collapsing.
We're the most humane super power (if you like that term) since Rome. I know no one here believes that but that comes from only choosing to see the worst, not the best, or even a balance of both. As for us being wasteful, I can't argue that away completely. It is true waste is our worst trait, but we are hardly alone there and cetainly do not deserve to be singled out for it.
know this flies in the face of your view of your country, Demosthenes, but that's the way I (and so much of the rest of the world) see it. I'm not even going to attempt to prove any of it, since this discussion is already being dragged through the dirt.
Like I said what you or other countries think of us only carries so much weight. What we think of ourselves is what's important. You can question our motives to your hearts content, but I have yet to see any country that is as compassionate as America is with her friends and potential friends. Show me one. Further, my view of my country is not as one sided as you take it. I know where a fair amount of our faults lie but it's kinda like how I can give my sister shit all I want, but if anyone else does I'll defend her. Our faults should be handled in-house not by foreigners.
Further you say you won't bother proving it. well ok, that's a convienient statement which assumes you CAN prove it. Till now I have felt you were reasonable, if flawed, so I'll allow that you think you can prove this at least to yourself. As far as this being dragged through the dirt well why is that? Because you made me mad and I responded? Sounds to me like you don't like to be challenged, while I, on the other hand, am on a forum full of Communists and European liberals. If I wanted agreement on everything I go join Sean Hannity's forum where (believe it or not) I am considered a bit liberal but would none the less get nodding heads anytime I posted.
Yes, convenient. One of the ways people deal with unpleasent aspects of reality is to change their view of it. Redefining words is a common and simple way to do this. Calling one thing "murder" and not another, merely because of circumstance, only serves to make a person believe that it is not wrong, or not nearly as wrong. This is called desensitization, the extreme form of which can be called psychopathy.
No not convienient. War is not murder. Look it up. Canada has similar laws. Murder is wrong. Killing for some just cause or another is regrettable but sometimes necessary. I don't like this. I wish the world I was born into wasn't like this. However, it is. I can try to change the definitions if I choose then claim the other person who is simply stating what the facts are is a pig headed death lover (I'm paraphrasing) if I want but the fact is there's murder and then there's killing. I'll grant you that how one views either is subjective.
As for desensitization, You're assuming I've dealt death so often I am numb. Well you can guess that isn't true. Maybe you mean I've watched it on tv often enough to think what I'm saying is "off in some other world" or something. Or that I think the way I do because I'm taking this abstractly. Know full well what I say when I say it.
Maybe then "revenge" becomes justified, then "pre-emptive strike".
Maybe so. Pre-emptive strikes are quite shrewd. Why should we wait until we have this happen again. As many have said on both sides of this argument it will happen again. So if we have the ability to prevent even one more attack by taking down Iraq, then we have a duty to our citizens to carry this out.
I don't even know if I have time this morning to go into all the problems with this bit! Having a practical understanding of the reasons for hatred and war, and how to stop it, I would hardly call idealistic. As for "posie's and daisies", one might say the same about you, who seems to believe quite strongly in the "good and purity" of the US's noble crusade to rid the world of evil and chaos
Well this is a bit arrogant in its way. You don't get to claim you have a good understanding of anything and retain credibility, If you say that about someone else then it becomes more relevant. Not about yourself. Further, name me one time when I said I believed in the US's mission to rid the world of evil? Find it. You can't because I didn't. I fully believe in doing whatever is necessary to protect ourselves from 9/11 ever happening again. If that means Iraq must go, so be it. If there will be other nations that need to learn lessons then so be it. Better them than our civilians.
Rest assured I don't wanna be the world police. You all can have your chunk of earth and do whatever you want with it, just play nice.
And you're comment about Canada's freedom is so cookie-cutter it's barely worth comment. And we can let other's decide for objectivities sake, but I believe I was pulling punches. It's really too bad you took it all so defensively that you had to misunderstand what I have said so far. But I suppose it's understandable. No one wants to believe that their country is so capable of atrocities
Cookie Cutter??? well ok, Let me clarify then. I wouldn't have had to say it if more Canadians weren't openly hostile to the US. It makes them seem ungrateful. Disagree all you want but Canada enjoys far more freedom and "high life" than it ever would without us. Now let me say I've always loved Canada like a brother. Not a lackey, stooge, or lap dog. Hell I would even fight for Canada if a need arose. So I don't like to have say: remember your blessings, I've never even had to think that before now. But when we suddenly get all the blame for all thats wrong with Canada and our past goodwill and friendliness begin to evaporate I have to question what's going on up there.
As far as me living in posey and daisy land, rest assured if the world worked like I wished, we would all be friends and would settle issues with a good ole' game of paper, scissors, rock.
The US has for decades been "exploiting" other countries economicly since WW2, since its economy has been on life-support since the Depression. But now even that's not enough. They need more, and war is the only way to prolong the inevitable collapse that is now 50 years overdue.
Sorry, but this is more conspiracy theory run amuck. Our economy is so strong that people panick and wet themselves when its only growing at a slow rate. As for this exploitation you possess a very simplistic view. It assumes America gets all the benefits and leave the countries we have interests in a pile of doggy doo. That is patently absurd. I could prove it but why bother since this is a flame war, right?
Too bad they don't know that there is a way that they could enjoy even better lifestyles without having to exploit or fight with anyone. Then they would realize how pointless this all is
Yeah its called business and economic partnership. But I suppose in your model this is all one-sided and any discussionof this is moot.
How very kind of you. But we've dealt with this line of reasoning in the child porn thread (if anyone recalls). The idea that "it has to happen to you before you'll understand" is not only a poor excuse in itself, but an even worse one when the cause is hatred, fear, and anger. The idea that I am not sufficiently "emotionally" motivated to "understand" the situation flies in the face of logic.
I recall well, I also recall not conceding this point you, and further stating that it has little to do with emotion, and much more to do with faith in what works. As I recall we agreed to disagree that I have no faith in rehabilitation, while you do. Well I have no faith in the Nevel Chamberlain approach to handling military action. I have great faith in the Churchill doctrine, which is the very basis for our action. (and yes I know, technically there is no dostrine, I've just taken the liberty)
Maybe if the US stopped screwing around in the middle east, they'd leave us alone too.
No they won't. You're the second Canadian who's tried to tell me that and it seems you folks have a naivete' that prevents you from fully understanding the situation. The fundamentalist Muslums hate all western culture. America is most visible so we take the brunt of it, but make no mistake all western culture is a target. It would be quite easy to abandon our great freinds in Israel to the lions to save us some bad publicity but that doesn't make it right.
let's hate them more
Everything I say you attribute to hate. Well I certainly do hate those that perpetuated 9/11 but to say my reasoning is because I hate all arabs is very unfair. You keep assuming that's why I think the way I do. Once again I point out that I think the way I do because of security. I'm tired of explaining that. I guess its easier to dislike me if you think I run around hating everybody, basically like a redneck. I assure you my neck's not red.
Does anyone else see this as the stereotypical words of a classic bully? I'm not for namecalling here, but that is the way you are sounding here. If one kid on the schoolyard says that he only feels safe when he's got the other kid pinned down on the ground, that makes it ok? Please! It's all acting out of fear! I'm not saying that there is nothing to be afraid of, but to base you actions on that fear rather than rationality gets you nowhere good (see the above progression? Fear to hate...) And that last statement is such a thinly veiled threat as to almost completely undermine any credibility you had!
Bully??? hmmmm.... that is rather off the wall. If you need to think of me as a bully so my arguments are invalid then that's ok by me. But even if I wanted to bully you how the heck am I gonna do that? This real world action is hardly represented properly by your model. It's more like this:
The US (the biggest kid on the playground) is friends with Israel (the littlest kid on the playground) and none of the other kids like the little kid. So when the big kid keeps sticking up for the little kid, the other kids all gang up and throw a rock at the big kid hoping to hide behind the kids on the far side of the playground who just don't want anything bad to happen. (even though this gang of kids has picked on them too, they just want to get along so they do whatever the gang wants) So the big kid goes over, selects one from the crowd (who's been proven to have been picking on others before) of kids that in one way or another is involved in the picking on of the little kid and throws his ass off the playground. While all the other kids who just don't like bad things to happen sit back wishing it would all go away.
Now that is more accurate. As for your statement of rationality, once again It's for us to decide what is rational not the kids sitting in the background.
You know, you just might be right. And that scares me even the more.
A long as it scares the bad kids into playing nice I don't care.
As for Baby's stuff:
The US? Let's all drop down to our knees and thank the great American Imperialists for making Canada such a US-carbon copy. Thank you!
Freedom due to the US? Honestly! The US doesn't give a rat's as$ about Canada...the only reason it has "surface concern" is because of it's own interests.
I believe i explained this earlier. As for us being friends because were self inteseted, well what other reason is there to be friends. Do you think the Soviet Union was "friends" with East Germany" because they were all just nice people playing together? c'mon....For what its worth, I like Canda and always will, as long as we're allies.
I think it's time you should know that not all Arabs are Muslim or extremists. Only a small fraction are muslim extremists...it only seems like it's so much because the media portrays ALL Arabs as Islamic extremists...even though that's not true. I know a lot non-Muslim and non-extremist Arabs! Heck, I am even one of them. Please when you talk about the extremists or terrorists, don't slop them all together under the very general and very vague term "Arab". It's just like saying all Americans are hicks...which we both know isn't true.
Oh really??? No kidding??? I don't need a lesson in Islam from you. I've stated before when I refer to the muslums who threaten us that they are in a group of about three different types of muslums. A pro-west group, a live and let live group, and the fundamentalists. the first two we can be friends with. The third is who I refer to. Sheesh do I reallly have to post a disclaimer every time I refer to them??? You're nit picking I wasn't "slopping them all together" at all, but I guess assuming that I was makes it easier to write me off as a hick.
Please when you talk about the extremists or terrorists, don't slop them all together under the very general and very vague term "Arab". It's just like saying all Americans are hicks...which we both know isn't true.
This is pretty interesting. Now War is Murder, and War is not Murder. War is Murder to a degree, the fact being your killing someone else. War is not Murder to a degree, the fact being is someone else is trying to kill you, you are defending yourself in the battle.
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