[Lt. Spoonman]

I was wondering if there is any serious independence movements in Scotland... I have alot of Scottish blood in me, and lived in northern ireland for several years- so i have alot of sympathy for the IRA and Sinn Fein (or at least their goal) and was wondering if there was a similar party or organization in scotland.

[Freedom]

The only thing the Irish people want the IRA to do is go away.

[Boondock Saint]

After Braveheart I understand some tossers who didnt know their own history wanted their independence and went about talking like giant assholes ... then someone told them Braveheart wasnt exactly accurate ...

Bunch of tossers ...

Anyway, Scotland is a part of the UK, as I understand it there is a Scotish law body that basically wastes a ton of money with crap ... bunch of tossers should just realize they arent a nation but are part of a larger nation.

As for N. Ireland, other then a small population of tossers most people there just want peace. Or so I have been told by people in the UK.

Anyway, bunch of morons ... they are all the same damn odd speaking wierdos ...

[Lt. Spoonman]

Freedom, the people of Northern Ireland want nothing more than independence from GB... where are you living in Ireland? I assume somewhere in the south...

[Lt. Spoonman]

Boondock, although Braveheart was not historically accurate the basic premise is true...

[Freedom]

Freedom, the people of Northern Ireland want nothing more than independence from GB... where are you living in Ireland? I assume somewhere in the south...

First of all, Irish Republicans make up roughly 40% of the population of Northern Ireland.
I live in Donegal, right next to the North.
Well 80% of the population North and South voted for an end to paramilitary action. Independence maybe, the IRA never.
Why do they want independence from Britan? They have better roads in the North.
If the North becomes independent, then the Loyalist Paramilitaries will be in full swing. Its just an endless cycle of violence and misery, for no real benefit. Everyone in the North is equal now, everyone has a chance to prosper. When Britan joins the Euro, it will make even less practical difference.

[Boondock Saint]

Boondock, although Braveheart was not historically accurate the basic premise is true...

What basic premise? That Scots who were invaders to begin with were unable to unite to defeat the Anglo-Saxons from the south of the island? I am not the expert but I have heard enough Scotish rantings to know that Scot independence makes about as much sense as Road Island trying to be independent from the US ...

It just doesnt make any sense ... other then foolish and blind nationalism there is no reason why Scots would want to seprate from the UK.

As for NI and Ireland ... I am reminded all the time that NI VOTED to be part of the UK ... so the IRA fighting against NI being a part of the UK makes about as much sense as the group fighting for Puerto Ricos independence ...

You can't claim to be fighting for the will of the people when the will of the people is the exact OPPOSITE of what u are fighting for ...

[Lt. Spoonman]

First of all, Freedom, i said i supported the GOAL of the IRA and Sinn Fein... not the violence.

Why do they want independence from Britan? They have better roads in the North.


I hope that was a joke... either that or you are ignorant of history.

Everyone in the North is equal now, everyone has a chance to prosper.

I lived outside of Belfast, and everyone is NOT equal... perhaps you should take a day trip up there and visit a protestant neighbourhood and then a catholic one... you will find quite shocking differences. (I would venture a guess at this point that you would be more at home in the first area)

out of curiousity, what takes you to Ireland?

Now boondock... I would remind you that i was simply asking if there was a movement in scotland, not saying that there was necessarily a need for one... I would, however, like for any of the Scotsman we have here at PoFo to weigh in on this... i know we have a few.

[Demosthenes]

Well as a dastardly blend of both Scottish and Irish I would be very interested to hear more on this topic, I always wondered what all the fuss was aboot (nya nya to the Canadians) over there. It seems to me to be a little silly, but what do I know? My family left for America a couple centuries ago.

[Freedom]

Actually, i know many Catholics from the South and move to the North to find work, go to University etc. Like all Urban areas, there is poor places and rich places, not all Prodestant areas are upper class.
Northern Ireland would be a lot better off if they had of kept with the Civil Rights marches rather then bombing supermarkets and pubs.

You'll also note how i said "had a chance to prosper". Of course they werent equal a long time ago, but its over the War is over. It will take time, the answer is not bombing supermarkets and town squares.

The IRA are no better than common criminals. They sell drugs to the poorest Catholics, the IRA hardly helped Catholics all that much, they just got them victimized even further. The IRA need to go away, in a Democracy when 80% of the population want peace, its time to go away.

either that or you are ignorant of history

Well i am ignorant. All i know is that the English have been in Ireland for nearly a millenium, that an Irish man invited them here, that an Irish man gave us the Six Counties and that there is more prodestants in the North than Catholics. I know that the town i live in, like many others,that was built by the British.

The IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA, UFF, Red hand Commandos they're all a bunch of worthless criminals in my eyes, they are no different and no better than each other.

out of curiousity, what takes you to Ireland?

My mom brought me here when i was littler. Why?


Like i said, I'm a Roman Catholic, it doesnt mean i want to kill protestants.

[Mr. Smith]

Scotland and Great Britain merged in 1707 to form the United Kingdom. I don't see how an independance movement would be needed they where not exactly conquered.

[Secession]

Freedom, the people of Northern Ireland want nothing more than independence from GB... where are you living in Ireland? I assume somewhere in the south...

Do they? I see people who do and people who don't. I have the feeling it is presented in a manner which suits my government, so I wanted to know what that statement is based on.

[jaakko]

I'm not sure if there is any 'Scottish nation' to begin with. Ireland is different.

[Secession]

Northern Ireland would be a lot better off if they had of kept with the Civil Rights marches rather then bombing supermarkets and pubs.

I think that is the only problem I have with them. I have little or no real influence over my government's attitude to the issue. Personally, I think it should be up to them, not us. I don't see what blowing me up will do.

[Secession]

I'm not sure if there is any 'Scottish nation' to begin with. Ireland is different.

The divisions in Europe between countries are mostly arbitrary lines on a map aren't they? I suppose rivers feature a fair bit and some other land features but historically countries change, split, join. A nation only really exists in the minds of it's people doesn't it?

[Secession]

Scotland and Great Britain merged in 1707 to form the United Kingdom. I don't see how an independance movement would be needed they where not exactly conquered.

We (I'm English) did go there with an army at one point but I think we called it 'peacekeeping'.

[jaakko]

A nation only really exists in the minds of it's people doesn't it?

No. Nation is an objective social phenomenon, ie. they exist irrespective of one's opinion. I think Stalin gave the most clear and consistent definition for 'nation':
"A historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life and psychological make-up, manifested in a common culture"
According to this definition, a community lacking any of these charachteristics is not a nation. It can be a lingual minority or an ethnic group or whatever, but not a nation. The Scottish people are so deeply integrated into the UK that I don't see a reason to consider them a nation anymore. And to my knowledge the vast majority of the Scots don't seek to establish an independent nation state. Wouldn't it be just nostalgia in the existing conditions?

[Lt. Spoonman]

Northern Ireland would be a lot better off if they had of kept with the Civil Rights marches rather then bombing supermarkets and pubs.

I couldn't agree more - Ghandi and MLK jr. are two on my personal heros...

You'll also note how i said "had a chance to prosper". Of course they werent equal a long time ago, but its over the War is over. It will take time, the answer is not bombing supermarkets and town squares.

A long time ago??? obviously your grasp of history is quite limited... How long ago was bloody sunday??? how long ago was h-block??? how long ago was holy cross???

Like all Urban areas, there is poor places and rich places, not all Prodestant areas are upper class.

This is true, but just as you will find a very few rich black neighbourhoods in the US... This does not denote equality. I, being neither a Catholic or a Protestant, had numerous freinds of both sects. In all but one circumstance, the Protestants were much better off.

The IRA are no better than common criminals. They sell drugs to the poorest Catholics, the IRA hardly helped Catholics all that much, they just got them victimized even further. The IRA need to go away, in a Democracy when 80% of the population want peace, its time to go away.

I would agree that the IRA has largely gotten away from its original goals (referring to the RIRA here, but CIRA is not much better) but to say that the IRA never helped the Catholics is a falsity... it was the IRA in one form or another that won the south its freedom.

Scotland and Great Britain merged in 1707 to form the United Kingdom. I don't see how an independance movement would be needed they where not exactly conquered.

Point taken, but if im not mistaken, didnt an invasion lead up to that???

Do they? I see people who do and people who don't. I have the feeling it is presented in a manner which suits my government, so I wanted to know what that statement is based on.

The majority of N. Irish Catholics desire independance from the crown. The majority of N. Irish Protestants do not. The group that are now the N. Irish Catholics are the original owners of the land. The protestants were forcibly settled into the area by the British, and the former owners of the land were forced to either move, were killed, or shipped off as slaves to barbados (there were 50,000 irish slaves on that isle... read the book "to hell or barbados" - i was recently there and it is amazing to see all these black people with curly red hair and dames like MacPherson and MacCaully...)

Countless unspeakable horrors have been commited against the Catholic population of Ireland by Britain... from Cromwell's numerous slaughters to the potatoe "famine" that could easily have been compensated for by the shippments of food aid that sat on the docks of dublin and were not moved by the british inland.

[CasX]

Scotland and Great Britain merged in 1707 to form the United Kingdom. I don't see how an independance movement would be needed they where not exactly conquered.

I was under the impression that Scotland had been invaded and conquered on several different occasions. Robert de Bruce and all that, or have I got the wrong place?

[Freedom]

A long time ago??? obviously your grasp of history is quite limited... How long ago was bloody sunday??? how long ago was h-block??? how long ago was holy cross???

Well Bloody Sunday was 30 years ago. Thats pretty long. Its not forever, but its pretty long. Hell 5 years ago is long in my eyes.

The IRA reached a point were they became just murderers without a cause.

it was the IRA in one form or another that won the south its freedom.

It was a mix of the IRB, IRA and volunteers. Of course Michael Collins, in his infinite wisdom, "negotiated" us into the mess in the first place.

IRA never helped the Catholics is a falsity

Catholics in the South maybe, but they made things worse in the North.

referring to the RIRA here, but CIRA is not much better

Aparently they were in cahoots over the Omagh bombing...well done guys, you killed 30 civilians...FIGHT THE POWER.

What do you think of this "Stakeknife" business?



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