[Classical Liberal]

Let me have the fun of defending communism.

The one thing i cant stand is people who try to explain how communism is such a great thing you knows the ones that call themselves marxist-leninists its like get over it already communism could never work in this world people r just too selfish and always wanna strive to the top.İ think communism is just another form of dictatorship.

If you are talking about something not working, it must be socialism you have problems with.

There are selfish people because of the rampant individualism and the myth of opportunity that are currently indoctrinated in the minds of the masses, namely in the USA. I used to believe that they (namely opportunity) were good things (I thought they encouraged harder work and rewarded it) when I was younger, but I learned how wrong they are. If you are talking about "human nature" for the cause of selfishness, that's not a good reason because people simply come into the world neutral and are affected by the world around them. All we (communists and socialists) think "human nature" is is the same for all organisms ...consume...grow...reproduce...die...except we are capable of more thought.

As for dictatorship, socialism is the dictatorship of the proletariat, thus class dictatorship. It may be a democracy or republic for the proletariat, but the democracy's and republic's inherent tendency to popularity contests and their ability to easily brainwash people into believing they are free makes them something undesirable until communism or a higher stage of socialism is reached. But true democracy has never existed, so that's beside the point. One thing I like about the dictatorship (probably in form of "party democracy", i.e. having an administrative chief and some council talked about by Comrade Adrien in more detail) is that since some are suspicious of it, it may cause them to come out and be more critical of the government so that it doesn't become corrupt and turn into state capitalism. Workers organizations independent of the government are necessary to prevent the return of capitalism, in my opinion.

LONG LİVE FREEDOM DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RİGHTS!!

In high communism, there are the freedoms, the democracy, and the human rights of which you speak.

[Siberian Fox]

Okay, so I am not pissed with you, but this is the kind of post in the lobby that is just asking for a flame war. Any trigger-happy potential respondants please save it for the debate forums, or else I'm only going to have to split this topic and move it to another forum.

The lobby is not intended for debate.

[ItsMe]

"Communism is a favorite among many on this board. I for one see it as an ideal dream, one that mankind is not capable of realizing. "

Actually it is a dream that people are not capable of attaining.

It is almost like these Marxist have tunnel vision that doesn’t allow them to research or look into the communist governments that have/do exist.

Almost like it doesn’t allow them to check into the low quality and repressive lives the people under communist governments experience.

Almost like they can’t understand no one will ever be equal to everyone else that people are inherently evil and there will always be those people who will abuse their power...unlike in a democratic republic the USA uses the communists do not have checks and balances in their government.

This leads to regimes who dictate social goals, religion and free speech,regardless of the people's desires.

"If you are talking about something not working, it must be socialism you have problems with.”

Socialism and communism are the same thing in the long run...communist uses force to govern while socialism uses power of consent but both to try and attain the same unreachable goals.

"There are selfish people because of the rampant individualism and the myth of opportunity that are currently indoctrinated in the minds of the masses, namely in the USA"

Kind of funny how a communist talks about the USA indoctrinating their people....while most of our issues when polled are usually around 50% for and against...hmm yeah we are all mindless drones....

At least we DO have the opportunity to vote candidates we think will represent us...in communist countries even if you aren’t brainwashed and disagree with something you have no real forum but open or covert rebellion.

"I used to believe that they (namely opportunity) were good things (I thought they encouraged harder work and rewarded it) when I was younger, but I learned how wrong they are."

"If you are talking about "human nature" for the cause of selfishness, that's not a good reason because people simply come into the world neutral and is affected by the world around them"

Which is why you were right in believing capitalism works before you were communized through one sided repressive learning.

"As for dictatorship, socialism is the dictatorship of the proletariat, thus class dictatorship. It may be a democracy or republic for the proletariat, but the democracy's and republic's inherent tendency to popularity contests and their ability to easily brainwash people into believing they are free makes them something undesirable until communism or a higher stage of socialism is reached."

haha are you serious you are comparing a country that has freedom of speech and doesnt band books?

I bet you if I went to a book store in America I would find books written by communists and socialist and capitalist while if I went to a bookstore say in China I wouldn’t find a single book expressing anything but communist teachings.

You guys don’t understand the freedom of America because you guys have never been to America. I don’t even know how easy it is to get a visa to leave a communist controlled regime but I do know I have lived in Hong Kong/China for more then a year and saw the repressive poor life the people in China lived.

I have been lucky enough to travel around the globe and out of all the countries I have been in America truly had the freest diverse thinking of all the countries combined.

"But true democracy has never existed, so that's beside the point."

Incorrect, the Athenian system is considered the model for direct democracy. Although I don’t think direct democracy is the way to go, but representive democracy is the best form of government.

"In high communism, there are the freedoms, the democracy, and the human rights of which you speak."

Please there will always be the upper/elite class or ruling class...while we still have this in democracy we have checks and balances to ensure they don’t do away with our natural rights. Communism is a regime that controls by repressive measures and impairs free speech as much as possible....because people who have freedom of speech or thought tend to question their government while wanting something better....and this isn’t standing in bread lines...hah

[Siberian Fox]

Gah

Topic split and moved to the Political Circus forum.

[jaakko]

This is so ignorant I thought I wouldn't bother. This is like a hamster's wheel, going round all the time.

-Communism is not eqalitarianism. Marx and Engels have criticised the idea of 'equality'.

-What Creeper tried to say was that there has not been a single communist country in the world, just socialist ones. Oh my dog ... now I'll have to repeat this yet one more time, but oh well:
Socialism is the transitional stage between capitalism and communism, which follows the forcefull overthrow of the capitalist class and its state machinery. Socialist society is one where under the state of the dictatorship of the proletariat transition from capitalist to socialist to communist relations of production takes place (which reflects in the culture too).

-I agree that Athens was the first democracy. I have no problem with that. It was 'real' democracy. But democracy always (just as state) has class nature. In Athens it was slave owner's democracy, ie. democracy under the state of the dictatorship of the slave owning class. Therefore, dictatorship and democracy doesn't contradict each other.

Before proceeding to further repetition, potential askers could go here and check if what they had in mind was already answered:

http://www.oneparty.co.uk/index.html?ht ... urses.html

[Classical Liberal]

I'm sorry I posted that in the Lobby. I'll better refine my netiquette. I won't trouble you with that again, SF.

It is almost like these Marxist have tunnel vision that doesn’t allow them to research or look into the communist governments that have/do exist.

Almost like it doesn’t allow them to check into the low quality and repressive lives the people under communist governments experience.

Some of this simply a diversion of opinions. ItsMe is quite content with the status quo while we are not. We liked what was happening in socialist countries and ItsMe does not.

But once again with the low quality of life stuff. The simple fact is that socialism isn't heaven on earth. But if socialism is given enough time it will rebuild any destruction caused by a forceful revolution and better the live sof the people.

Almost like they can’t understand no one will ever be equal to everyone else that people are inherently evil and there will always be those people who will abuse their power...unlike in a democratic republic the USA uses the communists do not have checks and balances in their government.

Jaako already addressed the issue of egalitarianism/equalitarianism.

I live in the USA as you can tell from my altered profile, and power can be abused in government, whether it is a republic like the US or a dictatorship. The US has only made it harder, but manipulation is all a politician needs to abuse the system (namely the higher levels of the government).

This leads to regimes who dictate social goals, religion and free speech,regardless of the people's desires.

The administration dictates social goals and the power of peer pressure created by so much propaganda, lies or not, dictates free speech to a degree. Religion should not be an issue in a socialist state. In fact, the leaders dictate the people's desires.

Kind of funny how a communist talks about the USA indoctrinating their people....while most of our issues when polled are usually around 50% for and against...hmm yeah we are all mindless drones....

Yes, the US indoctrinates its people publicly. It was far worse during the Cold War Era, and thankfully I wasn't in that too long. As for issues on polls...that depends on the issues. If it's the democrats vs. the republicans (almost always), the polls are meaningless because they may look very different to the public, but both parties are rather conservative, just to slightly different degrees. The rift is a bit greater since Bush has been president but not by much.

At least we DO have the opportunity to vote candidates we think will represent us...in communist countries even if you aren’t brainwashed and disagree with something you have no real forum but open or covert rebellion.

As I pointed out, the more important races are popularity contests and only the local ones seem honest. For disagreeing, why would you have to resort to rebellion? Why not get deeper into the Party and do something about it (unless, of course, you're a revisionist)?

Which is why you were right in believing capitalism works before you were communized through one sided repressive learning.

My belief in capitalism was always faltering when I believed in it as best I could because I believed if I worked hard, (which I do) I could make the world better through the current system. But the help would be minimal, I could be corrupted, and there's a good chance I would've gotten crushed. Capitalism doesn't reward hard work. It's about cheating your way through the economic ladder.

Since I pointed out that I live in America, the one-sided repressive learning is on capitlaism's side because of indoctrination found in children's history books, and the exclamations of "COMMIE! COMMIE! STUPID COMMIE! DIE COMMIE! GO TO HELL COMMIE!" resound in the minds of the masses. And sometimes in their ears.

haha are you serious you are comparing a country that has freedom of speech and doesnt band books?

I bet you if I went to a book store in America I would find books written by communists and socialist and capitalist while if I went to a bookstore say in China I wouldn’t find a single book expressing anything but communist teachings.

Actually, I have browsed through some bookstores and couldn't find any books about communism and socialism except to criticize them and books about capitalsim praise it and it's "victory" over the USSR.

You guys don’t understand the freedom of America because you guys have never been to America. I don’t even know how easy it is to get a visa to leave a communist controlled regime but I do know I have lived in Hong Kong/China for more then a year and saw the repressive poor life the people in China lived.

I live in America (just pointing it out wherever it's necessary). I thought Hong Kong was the rockbed of capitalism in that area. As for poor lives in the rest of China, that can be attributed to the plague of revisionism.

Incorrect, the Athenian system is considered the model for direct democracy. Although I don’t think direct democracy is the way to go, but representive democracy is the best form of government.

It is this fact why women couldn't vote until 1921. The idea that democracy was for men. Techincally, representative democracy is a bit contradictory because the literal definition of democracy is rule by the majority, thus no official people making decisions. But Jaako is right that bourgeois democracy and bourgeois dictatorship are synonymous.

Please there will always be the upper/elite class or ruling class...while we still have this in democracy we have checks and balances to ensure they don’t do away with our natural rights. Communism is a regime that controls by repressive measures and impairs free speech as much as possible....because people who have freedom of speech or thought tend to question their government while wanting something better....and this isn’t standing in bread lines...hah

The idea of the "immortal" upper class...the bourgeoisie fought the aristocracies of old, thus eliminating an "immortal" upper class. Steps will be taken in socialism until society is classless. The idea that freedom is enough or that classes are the price of freedom are things that prevent them from questioning the government unless the issue rings a deep bell with them, namely their freedom, the only thing they really have.

I have a brilliant idea for the bread lines problem. Why not airdrop the food? Anyway, Jaako's link should be able to answer almost all the questions anyone could have.

[ItsMe]

Ok the Creeper and jakko why don’t you guys give me your definition of communism.


And if socialism is the next step after capitalism....why have the socialist countries failed so poorly while America is still a super power? Going to blame it on the remaining capitalist dogs who haven’t been dealt with yet by the dictatorship…a dictatorship for the people…but run by a select few…hmmm

If you guys don’t honestly think competition leads to better quality and lower prices and that less government control leads to more innovation and less bureaucratic quagmire then I think you are not based in reality.

I read some of that propaganda….I am going to paste some of the bold brainwashing concepts found on that sight.


“A COMMUNIST SOCIETY IS A SOCIETY WHERE PEOPLE WORK FOR THE COMMUNITY ON THE BASIS OF SOCIAL PROPERTY, AS OPPOSED TO WORKING FOR AN EXPLOITING CAPITALIST CLASS ON THE BASIS OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. ANY OPPOSITION TO COMMUNISM MEANS DEFENDING THE EXPLOITATION OF THE WORKING PEOPLE BY CAPITALIST ROBBERS.”
When people work for the community they will do “just” enough to get by. Doesn’t this hurt innovation and a since of “personal” reward/fulfillment?

I would like to think we can improve science and research without needing a war to force increase in research…under a communistic government free thinking wouldn’t exist…why would it… when free thinking means you are a individual?

The worse enemy of communism is the “individual”. If that is the case then communism would be an extremely repressive government, stamping out the individual who dares think for himself.

Who wants a select few party members deciding what is best for the community? I know I don’t, Power corrupts even if the party wasn’t corrupt at the beginning, they would end up corrupt…I mean imagine how much power you would have when you don’t have anyone counter balancing your decisions on grounds of being against the community?

“THE DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT IS WORKING CLASS POLITICAL POWER, DIRECTED AGAINST THE EXPLOITERS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS TO FORCE THEM TO GIVE UP EXPLOITING THE WORKING PEOPLE FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT. “

“The dictatorship of the proletariat itself will fade away when exploitation and robbery are things of the past.”


Man I almost laughed when I read this; funny how they say the dictatorship will dissolve after they destroy the capitalist dogs…I wonder when the select few are given the dictatorship like power, if they will give it up after they destroy the free thinking capitalist…hmmm.

Or when it said “The dictatorship of the proletariat itself will fade away when exploitation and robbery are things of the past.” Exploitation and robbery coming to an end? That will never happen so I guess the dictatorship won’t fade away.

I also wonder “IF” they do give up the dictatorship type government even if the social enemy was done away with, then how will they enforce law on the people. Are there going to be a select few who make policy, wouldn’t these selected few be just like the hated elite class of the capitalist dogs? I mean it can’t be elected officials as that would cause descent in the community.

It is also funny how this coincides with the communist revolution in Russia where they killed off all of the middle and upper class educated people, destroying their economy in the process. While putting themselves in the Stone Age for many years…

Why did they kill the educated classes? Because education is the enemy of communism…what educated people would believe that an individual will work for the good of the community, ignoring the fact that we all have free will built into us and all have differing opinions….the only way to make communism work is to oppress the people with force and lack of education/free thinking.

“THE AGE-OLD STRUGGLE BETWEEN THOSE WHO DEFEND EXPLOITATION AND ROBBERY AND THOSE WHO OPPOSE IT, LED TO THE BIRTH OF THE COMMUNIST MOVEMENT. COMMUNISTS ARE PEOPLE WHO SIDE WITH THOSE WHO OPPOSE EXPLOITATION. KARL MARX IS THE FATHER OF THE MODERN COMMUNIST MOVEMENT”

More biased one sided spin.

“THE BOURGEOISIE, ACTING THROUGH THE REVISIONISTS, SEEK TO GAIN CONTROL OF THE COMMUNIST MOVEMENT, TO USE IT TO SERVE THEIR OWN CLASS INTERESTS, THAT IS, TO DEFEND CAPITALISM. BUT ANY DEFENCE OF CAPITALISM IS A DEFENCE OF THE EXPLOITATION OF THE WORKING PEOPLE BY A ROBBER CAPITALIST CLASS.”

This paragraph enforces my line of thinking. Thinking that communism is the enemy of free thinking? BUT ANY DEFENCE OF CAPATALISM IS A DEFENCE OF THE EXPLOTATION…BLAH blah. If you guys can’t see the linier enforced line of thinking, then I think you have fully bought into this crap.

Oh and no where so far did I see on this page anything stating that my understanding of communism is “everyone should be equal” isn’t a wrong understanding.

I’m going to read more and comment…but I can only stomach this freedom hate propaganda so much in one day.

[smashthestate]

One of the main tenets to communism is the abolition of private property. Haha! Good luck with that one, communists!

I'm sure NO ONE will mind that anything they possess is also the property of everyone else in the society.

[Classical Liberal]

This is pointless. Jaako is right (because he is always right )
smashthestate's question about property has been answered a gazillion times whenever the same question was posed, and he has forgotten how to change the ownership of property. I understand ItsMe's wish to hold on to certain personal freedoms that he and his comrades enjoys. It's better to stand for something than for nothing. But this issue will surely remain unresolved. Just different ideas for the future...there's no more to be said unless it's more pointless bashing for/against communism.

[ItsMe]

Ok the Creeper why don’t you give me your definition of communism.

[ItsMe]

"This is pointless. Jaako is right (because he is always right ) "

Creeper you are being a great communist already!

Following the party doctrine without free thinking...I applaud you.

And jaako isn’t right he is just disillusioned.

[Classical Liberal]

I think communism is a classless society with no state operations/organs/machinery/whatever to oppress anyone. Even I have a bit of a problem with socialism. It oppresses the former oppressors until its time is up.

Communism, though, follows the philosophy "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." This seems like it means each person gets only subsistence and no more, but I think that if people can get more than subsistence, which ought to be the case when communist means of production are reached, then they should get more.

Now I know that you might respond with concerns to innovation, growth, and different freedoms, but all the people will think in such a way that what benefits the whole benefits the one (by the time communism is reached.) Who wouldn't think it's good to work for the good of the community? People in the governement who aren't helping the people are not doing their part as communists.

That's what I think communism is. But then we have different ideas of how people are to be helped. Such a debate could go on until the stars grow cold.

[C-Kokos]

I agree that Athens was the first democracy. I have no problem with that. It was 'real' democracy. But democracy always (just as state) has class nature. In Athens it was slave owner's democracy, ie. democracy under the state of the dictatorship of the slave owning class. Therefore, dictatorship and democracy doesn't contradict each other.

Real democracy? I doubt it... The vast majority of the Athenian populace would not be allowed to vote... Except for the fact that no true democracy can be based on slaves, a true democracy can also not be based on the sexist principle that women cannot vote...

My apologies for not contributing more to the debate than this... I am terribly sick today... I think I am dying, will you come to my funeral?

[jaakko]

It is also funny how this coincides with the communist revolution in Russia where they killed off all of the middle and upper class educated people, destroying their economy in the process. While putting themselves in the Stone Age for many years…

Why did they kill the educated classes? Because education is the enemy of communism…

That is pure bullshit. Educated people were killed. Socialism lead Russia to Stone Age. Economy destroyed. Funny indeed...

One of the main tenets to communism is the abolition of private property. Haha! Good luck with that one, communists!

I'm sure NO ONE will mind that anything they possess is also the property of everyone else in the society.

I hope no one answers this hopeless combination of ignorance and arrogancy.

[jaakko]

Real democracy? I doubt it... The vast majority of the Athenian populace would not be allowed to vote...[/quote]

I never questioned that. Read what I said. Democracy is a product of class society, and it's always connected to the state (which in turn is always class dictatorship). No democracy without dictatorship. Athens was a real existing democracy. Slave owners' democracy is democracy, and the fact that the vast majority of the people were even officially excluded from it doesn't change this. In the slave owners' state in Athens, the ruling class practised democracy, as does the bourgeoisie mostly.

Except for the fact that no true democracy can be based on slaves, a true democracy can also not be based on the sexist principle that women cannot vote...

According to Engels, democracy as a special machinery will wither away with the classes and the state. Marxists don't call the people's power of a classless communist society a 'democracy'. There will be 'socialist democracy' (which is proletarian in class essence), but that's only for the period of socialist transition where class struggle and state still exist.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I think many are confused, myself included, as to what exactly a true communist society would look like and function. These are some of the specific questions I have.

1. first of all, being in the marketing/adv. industry, something I love, I guess im out of luck in a commune?
2. How are goods/needs obtained by the single man, some sort of 'money' right? Or are bread lines are the order of the day?
3. Will everyone be required to 'work' for their keep. I keep hearing different versions of this, ive heard some say socialism: no work=you starve, communism: no work=your bored. Whats the real deal here?
4. What kind of variety will there be in a commune? It is the spice of life, as far as food, music, movies, art, types of houses, cars, etc. or must the desire for variety be denounced? I dont think individualism can ever be stunted.
5. Will the complete residential complex have to be completely torn down and rebuilt in order to standardize all the housing?
6. How do the arts and literature progress? How can it flourish under a controlled, standardized enviroment. And will a handful of people 'decide' what is art for the rest of us?
7. How is occupation decided? Tests? Trials? What if you decide you'd like to change careers, or dont want to live in a certain place anymore? And wouldnt eventually, the 'classless' society start to form classes based on occupation instead of wealth? Noone is going to want to be the ditch-diggers, so many are going to try to buck the system, just like today, so how do you prevent this? How can you ever prevent corruption, and communism has proven over and over again, when the system is corrupted, its extremely ugly.

Im sure i'll have more question later when I can think of them, but thanks in advance for any replies.

[jaakko]

1. first of all, being in the marketing/adv. industry, something I love, I guess im out of luck in a commune?

In a communist society, where commodity production no longer exists, there naturally are no marketing or advertisement. I'd say there would be just information readily available to those interested. Basically the advertisement would just change its nature to something totally else.

2. How are goods/needs obtained by the single man, some sort of 'money' right? Or are bread lines are the order of the day?

Basically, according to need. This is impossible before an enough high level of production is attained. The goal is to fullfill the needs of those who do their part in the society.

3. Will everyone be required to 'work' for their keep. I keep hearing different versions of this, ive heard some say socialism: no work=you starve, communism: no work=your bored. Whats the real deal here?

Yes, required. Required untill such conditions are created where one simply has to 'give according to his abilities' to be able to 'get what he needs'.

4. What kind of variety will there be in a commune? It is the spice of life, as far as food, music, movies, art, types of houses, cars, etc. or must the desire for variety be denounced?

Of course more important issues are to be solved first. When the society is able to fulfill atleast the most basic needs of the majority of humanity, only then we can begin placing more weigh on issues such as variety in consumption goods etc. Proceed in order of social importance.

5. Will the complete residential complex have to be completely torn down and rebuilt in order to standardize all the housing?

It's not reasonable to demolish something that isn't hindering the social progress. Society needs different houses. But again, first to be solved are the problems concerning the housing of vast majority of world's labouring population.

6. How do the arts and literature progress? How can it flourish under a controlled, standardized enviroment. And will a handful of people 'decide' what is art for the rest of us?

I think you're referring to the state control on arts in socialist countries. I can easily imagine a situation where it is appropriate for the socialist state to have an active part in the field of arts too. Not necessarily cencorship, but that depends. But when the struggle between different social systems (principally, capitalism and socialism) and social classes (principally the bourgeoisie and the proletariat) is over, then class struggle will stop influencing the politics (and arts too).

7. How is occupation decided? Tests? Trials?

One goes to school, pretty much like nowadays (except that it will cost nothing).

What if you decide you'd like to change careers,

I'd assume you go to some sort of job center, tell what you would wish to do and ask where there is need for your skills.

or dont want to live in a certain place anymore?

Then you'd leave your house and move.

And wouldnt eventually, the 'classless' society start to form classes based on occupation instead of wealth?

The division of society is based neither on occupation or wealth. Social class is a social group that has distinct property relations to means of production. Elimination of classes doesn't eliminate all social groups, and that isn't even the goal of socialism.

Noone is going to want to be the ditch-diggers, so many are going to try to buck the system, just like today, so how do you prevent this?

One solution could be if everyone was required to do these "dirty jobs" for a set period per year. This I would expect to lead to a situation where there wouldn't be much people doing only "dirty" work.

The organisation of work will get much easier as the working day gets shorter (communists in Finland, for example, have estimated that the workday could already be easily shortened to six hours because of the increased productivity of the productive forces). Stalin already in his 'Economic Problems of Socialism in USSR'(1952) stated that one of the necessary prerequisites for the rising of the cultural level of average workers is the gradual shortening of the work day, to 5 hours and then 4 hours per day. In socialism it will be more easy (altough not always possible) to shorten the working days, as all of the value the worker produces goes either to himself or the continuing development of society. Nothing will be wasted of the workday, so the worker just works so long as what is required to feed himself and the society.

How can you ever prevent corruption, and communism has proven over and over again, when the system is corrupted, its extremely ugly.

Complex issue. One step would be the circulation of bureaucratic posts. Elimination of parasitic bureaucracy though collective democratic supervision.

[jaakko]

Double post.

[smashthestate]

So what if the whole society wants to be an office worker, and no one wants to be a ditch-digger? We can't all be office workers, can we?

[jaakko]

So what if the whole society wants to be an office worker, and no one wants to be a ditch-digger? We can't all be office workers, can we?

Same as now. Everyone would apply to be an office worker. But then we'd run out of offices and ditches.