[The Immortal Goon]

Don't construct a conspiracy theory about me.

There was a unanimous vote that I didn't initiate that purged you for peddling white supremacy and other actions that you were taking.

I've given theoretical and practical examples, and the only push back is whining about whites being victims in their hearts. Your high-minded racist rhetoric aside, you have nothing to offer that hasn't been tried before and didn't result in strengthening the capitalist exploitation of all workers, even white ones.

[Senter]

Political Interest wrote:
"The Western left of today do not want socialism, state ownership of factories and portaits of Stalin at railway stations. They do not want patriotic states with proud working classes as existed in the Warsaw Pact nations. All they want is a vague notion of "social justice" and communalist politics with no tangible political objectives. "

That is a question of education and familiarity that comes with it. Think of the abused child who is taken from her parents by the court yet who cries to be reunited with her abusive parents. The abuse is familiar and the unknown is scary. After all, what she has already been through was scary so "maybe it can be even worse."

The American people see all the problems and see no ultimate solution, but capitalism is familiar and the alternative is scary. So they cling to the familiar. Education will change this. It's a matter of time.

[noemon]

You can fly your white supremacy nationalism, but it in no way addresses the truth:

One minute, so James Connolly and Trotsky can peddle patriotic nationalism in the quotes you provided but no-one else can? What gives?

I do not see how anything you write is relevant to the current political realities we are facing.

I asked you some questions before and you refused to reply about what is your strategy going to be?

Judging from your reply to Ombrageux, it seems to me that you have chosen guilt-tripping.

[Ombrageux]

TIG: I did not mention this as a criticism. I consider you my friend

[The Immortal Goon]

One minute, so James Connolly and Trotsky can peddle patriotic nationalism in the quotes you provided but no-one else can? What gives?

In what ways was any of the so-called, "patriotic nationalism," of Trotsky and Connolly at all related to any of the other garbage being peddled?

As for your questions:

What do you propose? That's up to you, I'd imagine.

How does repeating the failed strategies of the 19th century in order to address the problems that the strategies failed to fix mean one is ignoring history? By not properly diagnosing the problem, I guess. Though it seems obvious enough.

What do I plan on doing to address the problems in the west? As much as possible work for the overthrow of the capitalist system.

[noemon]

In what ways was any of the so-called, "patriotic nationalism," of Trotsky and Connolly at all related to any of the other garbage being peddled?

In what ways is it unrelated or different?

What do I plan on doing to address the problems in the west? As much as possible work for the overthrow of the capitalist system.

By imagining a Left party that does not actually exist? By handing over power to Trump? By bashing his working class supporters as racist rednecks?

Do you not think that urgency requires you to make more current and short-term targets?

[The Immortal Goon]

In what ways is it unrelated or different?

I've been giving context, practical and theoretical for three pages. They have an international view of the system as a whole; the others just want to beat up non-whites as inferior competition. Which, as I've shown, is counter-productive.

And there is urgency, but the ilk opposed to socialists will always kill when they can't shut us up because we are the only ones with an actual solution. For more than a century the right has worked their petite bourgouis members into a frenzy and pulled a big portion of the proletariat with them. They beat up their competition, make white militias, and create a poorer more desperate class from which the capitalists can exploit higher profit. To combat this, the petite bourgeoisie are worked into a frenzy and pull a segment of the proletariat with them...

I'm simplifying, but the solution isn't to try again. It's to organize. And one day we'll do so again. But now we've been sufficiently smashed by capitalists and their fascist lackies that we are nearly at the bottom again.

Just like it doesn't serve anybody to keep trying the same thing for the duped white working class, it won't help if the socialists join in to do the same. It's more difficult, but the only solution is to organize, resist, and build until we can act.

Otherwise, it's simply more of the same forever.

[Ombrageux]

TIG, it is unfortunate you have to resort to caricature. Tell me: what do you think about Israel and Japan, who have very strict immigration policies? Is their maintaining a national identity bad from your point of view? I am not proposing anything different than that. (With the exception that, unlike Israel, I have no desire to conquer foreigners and rule them in perpetuity. On the contrary: I merely want my people to be left alone.)

[RhetoricThug]

What do I plan on doing to address the problems in the west? As much as possible work for the overthrow of the capitalist system.

What gibberish. Your entire life is structured around the 'system' you think you are fighting, but really it's just make-believe so you can feel important & harmlessly role play through your political paradigm (the reality you think therefore believe in). Your ilk tend to be dangerous because your mindset is no different from that of a brainwashed cult member. That includes the left & right. Folks who focus in on fixed perspectives neglect the nature of human existence. Nature & humans continuously evolve/change and nothing REAL operates within the little box you dwell in. Your political ideas promote division & dehumanization and cannot be sustained. Perhaps you should raise your 'awareness' above the grand checkerboard and beyond its fragmented approach and start seeing life for what is right NOW. In other words stop becoming the monster you pretend to fight, stop classifying human existence to fit inside your little box of perception.

Minority groups are being played off each other to incrementally collapse Western civilization, making it more malleable for future 'programming.' The arguments present in this particular thread, represent the 'old-hat' tradition of reiterating various platforms of propaganda and dissecting/discussing why they historically act the way they do... and if the way they are acting right now is 'right' or 'wrong.' However, you neglect to comprehend our global milieu. Propaganda platforms, cultures, religions, races, creeds, etc, can be exploited by internationalists that wish to watch old platforms destroy each other, while new systems of social architecture replace the outdated organizations.

TIG, how many times must I reiterate this simple point: The Left's fixed perspective is one form of dialectical tail chasing manufactured for mass consumption by the so-called Bourgeoisie.. Stop regurgitating outdated perceptions and staring at the irrelevant 'rear-view mirror' for answers. I get it, it's so comforting & easy to look back for your reference points so you construct a self-affirming power-point-post, but our current political reality be nothing like the 20th, 19th, or 18th century, because we live for today, not the past. I'm attempting to convey the power of tomorrow, meaning to say: as long as you position yourself on the left side of a thought pattern, the law of physics will automatically and organically establish the equal or opposite reaction for you. Humanity will continue to be locked into one perpetual class struggle which imprisons our true potential.

As for the New Right: Trump is the very first provocateur politician. He's an actor engaging in political stagecraft.

I go on to strike this conclusion; the next phase of the global war on terror must be differentiated domestically, meaning that the 'protest' vote shall be equated with 'radical extremism.' Donald Trump is the face for radical nationalism according to the existing political entity.

Nationalism will slowly be thrown under the extremest umbrella. Meanwhile... folks that think they are fighting the capitalist system will be incrementally enslaved by the scientifically controlled global Technocracy.

Humanity must not to conform to the social programming by employing mass nonviolent civil disobedience.

[The Immortal Goon]

TIG, it is unfortunate you have to resort to caricature.

If the brown shirt fits...

Tell me: what do you think about Israel and Japan, who have very strict immigration policies? Is their maintaining a national identity bad from your point of view? I am not proposing anything different than that. (With the exception that, unlike Israel, I have no desire to conquer foreigners and rule them in perpetuity. On the contrary: I merely want my people to be left alone.)

Israel is a good example of exactly what I've been describing. You say that, with the exception that you wouldn't want any "foreigners," but this is how the Israeli economic system runs. This is not Israel's fault per se, the world capitalistic market runs on cheap, usually "foreign," labour.

Japan, because of its place as a former island empire, has had a slightly easier time avoiding the crises. But they cannot, as nobody in a globalized capitalist economy can. They already exploit what foreign workers that they can, have been increasing foreign workers coming into the country, have been steadily trying to get more, and is facing a demographic crisis in part because there are not more foreigners coming in (1, 2, 3).

Despite Japan and Israel's rhetoric, the fact is that the rest of the world is there. It remains.

TIG, how many times must I reiterate this simple point: The Left's fixed perspective is one form of dialectical tail chasing manufactured for mass consumption by the so-called Bourgeoisie.. Stop regurgitating outdated perceptions and staring at the irrelevant 'rear-view mirror' for answers. I get it, it's so comforting & easy to look back for your reference points so you construct a self-affirming power-point-post, but our current political reality be nothing like the 20th, 19th, or 18th century, because we live for today, not the past. I'm attempting to convey the power of tomorrow, meaning to say: as long as you position yourself on the left side of a thought pattern, the law of physics will automatically and organically establish the equal or opposite reaction for you. Humanity will continue to be locked into one perpetual class struggle which imprisons our true potential.

History works upon what has happened before, not upon what has not yet occurred.

[Ombrageux]

The world is there, but you don't need to import the whole world, you can maintain your identity (if you deem it desirable, as I think it is). There is always going to be some migrant labor, but it seems to me in neither case, Israel and Japan, will this (yet) shatter the ethno-national identity of the host nation.

Japan is shrinking demographically. But, personally, I prefer to shrink demographically than be physically replaced and reduced to minorityhood by a foreign people. In fact, if one factors in our environmental problems, we rather need less (and higher quality) humans. Africa in particular will face disaster if its population, as U.N. projections suggest, reach 4 billion this century, which will lead to even more pressure on Europe. (Actually, the evidence suggests that if only the top 10 or 20 percent of most intelligent Africans bred, their population would rapidly converge in ability with Eurasians. Perhaps that could be a constructive solution?)

In general, I do not think it is accurate to say that the developed economies "depend" on unskilled labor. Rather, it is there, they sometimes use it for convenience or cheapness, but there is no necessary relation here, especially in an age of automation and falling workforce participation rate. We perhaps need more IT guys, certainly not more uneducated laborers.

But it seems to me you are suffering from rather stiff ideological blinders. All I have said, Charles de Gaulle or Winston Churchill could have said it too and indeed did say similar things. So that is obviously not a qualification for "Nazism." For you it seems, the word "Nazi" is simply a synonym for "heretic," for deviance from a few ideological taboos that you have been indoctrinated your entire life to accept, in a culture which is godless and nihilist in every other way. So I do not blame you for clinging to the only piece of apparent "sacred" in our culture. But I would wish, if one claims to be an intellectual, that we be a bit more self-conscious and discerning.

[Potemkin]

History works upon what has happened before, not upon what has not yet occurred.

"It's in Revelations, people!"

[noemon]

Potemkin is the communist who joined in with German neo-liberals in bashing Tsipras & Iglesias.

TiG has missed the part where Potemkin is describing TiG's arguments against the nationalist working class in this very thread:

This. There seems to be a widespread ignorance among the middle-classes and upper-classes as to why the working classes have the attitudes and values which they do. They seems to ascribe it to 'bad breeding' or 'viciousness' or just plain 'ignorance', anything to refuse to acknowledge that the lower classes are, in fact, simply behaving rationally, given the objective conditions of their lives. For example, I can remember watching a TV documentary in Britain a few years back in which a working-class lad was asked whether he would rather have £1 right now or £2 in a week's time. He answered that he would rather have £1 right now. A middle-class psychologist (with a middle-class accent and a smug self-righteous expression on his face to match) casually diagnosed him as a "psychopath" because of this one answer, since he clearly could not think a week into the future. What this middle-class wanker of a 'psychologist' refused to perceive was that it is, in fact, rational for a working class person to prefer to be given £1 right now rather than accept the promise of £2 in a week's time. The working classes live in an unstable and uncertain social and economic environment. If they turn down that £1 right now and opt for £2 in a week's time, then when they try to claim their £2 a week later, the offer might not still be open, or the person who made the promise might deny they had done so, or their child might have died of whooping cough because of a lack of medicine when they needed it. You take what you are offered when it's available, because who the fuck knows what might happen in a week's time. If you are middle-class, of course, then you live in a very stable social and economic environment, and you tend to be comfortably off anyway, so it is then rational to wait a week for the £2, and if they refuse to pay it then you simply get your lawyer to sue them for breach of promise. The middle-classes can afford to plan ahead, whereas the working classes cannot. In other words, it's a different fucking world. Airily and smugly dismissing the lower classes as "psychopaths" simply because they behave rationally in the social and economic environment which the middle-classes have fashioned for them is an abuse of psychiatry and an abuse of one's social position. It's also why the working classes hate liberals and hate the political and moral system they have been 'thrown into', to use Heidegger's phrase.

[Potemkin]

TiG has missed the part where Potemkin is describing TiG's arguments against the nationalist working class in this very thread:

Everything I said in that post is why the capitalist system itself must be overthrown if the working classes are to be liberated mentally and spiritually as well as economically from oppression and exploitation. What I said does not contradict TIG's position, it reinforces it.

[noemon]

What you said about the middle-class and the upper-classes of misunderstanding the ignorant working classes who are irrationally bigoted is describing TiG's arguments and placing them well within the scope of these arrogant middle-classes according to your definition, because that is exactly how he is dealing with 2 working class nationalists in here.

[The Immortal Goon]

The world is there, but you don't need to import the whole world, you can maintain your identity (if you deem it desirable, as I think it is). There is always going to be some migrant labor, but it seems to me in neither case, Israel and Japan, will this (yet) shatter the ethno-national identity of the host nation.

And here we are back at the beginning. Marx and Engels explained this process. Not as good. Not as bad. But something that existed as the bourgeoisie as a class came into being. And you, the reactionist, feel the great chagrin.

The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed.

But it was true more than a hundred years ago as accomplished fact. It is true now, regardless of what feels anybody has about it.

Japan is shrinking demographically. But, personally, I prefer to shrink demographically than be physically replaced and reduced to minorityhood by a foreign people. In fact, if one factors in our environmental problems, we rather need less (and higher quality) humans.

...In general, I do not think it is accurate to say that the developed economies "depend" on unskilled labor.

But it is not up to you personally. It is not up to me personally. It is up to the material reality in which we live.

But it seems to me you are suffering from rather stiff ideological blinders. All I have said, Charles de Gaulle or Winston Churchill could have said it too and indeed did say similar things.

And you think a communist would rally to de Gaulle or Churchill? Why would I take pause at the fact the bourgeoisie support the bourgeoisie?

So that is obviously not a qualification for "Nazism." For you it seems, the word "Nazi" is simply a synonym for "heretic," for deviance from a few ideological taboos that you have been indoctrinated your entire life to accept, in a culture which is godless and nihilist in every other way. So I do not blame you for clinging to the only piece of apparent "sacred" in our culture. But I would wish, if one claims to be an intellectual, that we be a bit more self-conscious and discerning.

It is telling that the only person to use the word, "Nazi," in this thread has been Rich in his accusation that the communists were Nazis or whatever he blathered on about.

If it is a title you'd like to apply to yourself, I shall not object. Though I shall also refrain from making you a martyr for doing so, as you are so obviously demanding that you reluctantly take the Nazi title.

Nor have I claimed to be an intellectual.

We should stop here and point out that for all the endless screeching and whining the right makes about identity politics, the attempt to contextualize the economic failings in broader terms is threatened by the right to turn into a discussion about magical revelations, robot labour forces, and who gets to wear which personal identity

What I said does not contradict TIG's position, it reinforces it.

[Ombrageux]

TIG: Why do you play this bizarre shell-game? You said earlier you support open borders immigration. Now you claim you’re just an impotent passive observer and just submit to whatever the bourgeoisie does.

I say: I see what some bourgeois are doing, concerning migration, and I believe that, in destroying nationhood, they are destroying one of the fundamental sources of solidarity in any society (as evidenced by the pervasive of tension in all multiethnic societies and the failure of leftists to create racial equality in any society.

You have a very strange ideology. Sometimes you claim to be plotting a revolution. Other times you assert you will just passively accept everything. I guess you aren’t really doing anything but fantasizing.

And then another bizarre evasion: you specifically referred to a “brown shirt” fitting me, that is obviously a Nazi reference – now you claim to have made no Nazi reference.

Oh well.

[Potemkin]

What you said about the middle-class and the upper-classes of misunderstanding the ignorant working classes who are irrationally bigoted is describing TiG's arguments and placing them well within the scope of these arrogant middle-classes according to your definition, because that is exactly how he is dealing with 2 working class nationalists in here.

What I was describing was the bourgeois prejudice against the working classes, who are sneered at for simply behaving rationally, given the oppressive and exploitative nature of the capitalist system they are forced to live under. The bourgeoisie tend to adopt one of two attitudes towards the working classes: either sneering contempt and moralistic condemnation, or a well-meaning desire to 'reform' the working classes and make them more like the 'enlightened' middle classes. Both attitudes are equally despicable and condescending, though the latter at least tend to be polite about it.

The point is that the capitalist system deforms people's lives and minds. It forces them to think only for the present rather than the future, it makes their lives desperate and ugly, it robs them of their human dignity and self-respect. It must go.

[noemon]

2 communists went in to a thread one of them called the nationalist working classes, "rational actors operating according to their own rational economic self-interest", the other called them "brown-shirts whose only interest is to beat up the non-white guy".

In the end they congratulated each-other and went about their business.

How does marxist analysis, analyses this reality?

[Potemkin]

2 communists went in to a thread one of them called the nationalist working classes, "rational actors operating according to their own rational economic self-interest", the other called them "brown-shirts whose only interest is to beat up the non-white guy".

As Hegel put it, "All that is real is rational." What he meant by that was that rationality means acting in accordance with our given social and natural environment. Capitalism is real; it exists. It is therefore rational for the working classes to resent the working class immigrants into their nation who will compete with them for jobs and social services. Does this mean it is right and proper for this to happen? No, it simply means that the real, existing system which makes such behaviour rational must be made unreal. It must be overthrown.