Yes, people really are turning away from democracy - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14748343
Yascha Mounk wrote:We have been surprised by the scale and intensity of attention our work has garnered around the world since the New York Times profiled it last week. Perhaps we shouldn’t have been. Our research, after all, helped contextualize the seismic shifts we’ve seen in some of the world’s long-standing democracies over the past year — and comes to some rather startling findings.

Public attitudes toward democracy, we show, have soured over time. Citizens, especially millennials, have less faith in the democratic system. They are more likely to express hostile views of democracy. And they vote for anti-establishment parties and candidates that disregard long-standing democratic norms in ever greater numbers.

It is to be expected that claims as disconcerting as these would evoke some skepticism. Over the past week, our critics have mooted three main objections: They claim that our findings are highly sensitive to the wording of particular survey questions or the way in which we interpret particular results; they claim that, contrary to what we are saying, millennials are not more critical of democracy than their elders, and they dispute that disenchantment with democracy has markedly increased over time.

We would be very pleased if these criticisms held true. After all, we’d rather be reassured of the stability of our democracies than win an argument. Sadly, though, we remain as alarmed as we have ever been.

1. It’s not just that one graph

One of the most striking figures from our work, which will soon be published in the Journal of Democracy, shows that younger generations in long-standing democracies are much less likely to consider it “essential” to live in a democracy than earlier cohorts. To illustrate the point, we showed the proportion of respondents across different birth cohorts giving the maximum result of 10. This invites an obvious riposte: Perhaps younger generations have cooled on democracy, slipping from a 10 to a 9 or an 8 — but have not grown altogether indifferent or even hostile to democratic governance. An analysis done by Joe Noonan shows that this is not the case: Even if strong support for democracy is interpreted less stringently, a much larger number of millennials has become indifferent to its fate.

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Greater Share of Young People Is Neutral About Living in A Democracy


Nor are our findings an artifact of one particular survey question. After all, other survey items produce similar results. In the World Values Survey, the most comprehensive effort at measuring public opinion across more than 100 countries, the proportion of respondents stating that “having a democratic political system” is a “bad” or “very bad” way to run the country, for example, is strikingly similar to our original chart. Younger cohorts in the long-standing democracies of the West do not just give less importance to living in a democracy; a larger share of them also openly rejects democratic institutions.

Greater Share of Young People In Longstanding Democracies Claim That Having a Democratic Political System a “Bad” or “Very Bad” Way to Run this Country

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How meaningful is the distance between support for democracy among young and among older people? It may look reassuring that the overall share of citizens who openly disdain democracy remains rather small (10-20 percent of respondents, in most cases). But it shouldn’t be. After all, even in failing democracies, the share of citizens who openly oppose democracy never exceeds 20-30 percent of respondents. Of the more than 100 countries surveyed by the World Values Survey, the country in which skepticism of democracy is most widespread is Russia, where since 1995, an average of 26 percent of respondents have stated that having a democratic political system is a “bad” way to run the country. In the United States, 23 percent of millennials now express the same sentiment.

2. Young citizens are more critical of democracy than they used to be


Young citizens today are more skeptical of democracy than their parents were at the same age. As we pointed out in an earlier article for Journal of Democracy, published this July, this trend is especially striking in the United States, where an illiberal “cohort shift” is evident over time, and across a range of survey items. The next chart, for example, compares the number of Americans of different generations stating that it would be a “fairly good” or “very good” idea to have “a strong leader” rather than “parliament and elections” in 1995 and in 2011. Younger cohorts are simply more likely to agree with this anti-democratic point of view. In the last survey, almost half of millennials expressed approval for a “strong leader”.

Young Americans Are More Open to having a “Strong Leader”

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Do the same findings hold across the universe of long-standing, supposedly established democracies? We do not claim that the effect is equal in all countries, and analyzing such variation would be an important extension of our work. In Sweden, for example, younger cohorts may be more skeptical of democracy than their elders — but a comparison of data over time shows they are more pro-democratic than their counterparts were in the 1990s (Figure 3). But in most of the long-standing democracies for which we have data, our trend holds. In Germany, younger cohorts used to be reliably more pro-democratic than older ones. Now, both the young and the middle-aged express more authoritarian values than people did at similar life stages in the past. The picture is even less encouraging in the United Kingdom and the United States, where millennials surveyed today are markedly more favorable to having a “strong leader” than their parents’ generation was at the same life stage.

Cohort Patterns Over Time — 1995-8 and 2005-14 Compared

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It’s tempting to explain these findings away. For example, it seems likely that younger citizens are less sanguine about democracy in part because they lack the direct experience of living under, or fighting against, authoritarian regimes like fascism or communism. But that need not be a comforting explanation. After all, the very same reasons may lead younger people to vote for extreme candidates who would erode key elements of liberal democracy.

In fact, there is reasonably strong evidence that younger citizens are not only more skeptical of democracy than they once were but also more drawn to political extremes than in the past. Since the early 1990s, the proportion of young respondents (with “young” defined as age 14-35) who self-identify as either radical left (“1” on a 10-point left-right political spectrum) or radical right (“10” on the left-right scale) has increased in many countries, and at both ends of the scale.

Rising Radicalism Among Respondents Aged 14-35

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In the United Kingdom and the United States, this energy has mostly manifested itself as enthusiastic support for populist candidates of the left, like Jeremy Corbyn or Bernie Sanders. Meanwhile, younger citizens have generally been opposed to Donald Trump or to exit from the European Union. But in other countries, many of them have embraced right-wing populists, as shown by the strong support of young people for France’s Front National, the large youth vote for Greece’s Golden Dawn, and the strong support the far-right AfD enjoys among young Germans. Anti-establishment sentiment is real — and depending on the circumstances, it can be mobilized by parties of the right as well as the left.

3. Citizens have grown more disenchanted with democracy over time


Our claims about weaker support for democracy among younger people have understandably garnered a lot of attention. But as we wrote in our initial article, this is only one small aspect of our overall research. Yes, young people are more critical of democracy than older people, or indeed than their parents had been at a similar life stage. But longitudinal data also show a real shift in authoritarian sentiment across other age groups.

The World Values Survey first asked whether it would be good to have a “strong leader” who does not have to bother with parliament and elections in 1995. Since then, public attitudes to democracy (parliament and elections) vis-à-vis authority (a strong leader) have soured in most democracies. Taking the full sample of democracies of the 1990s, we can see that authoritarian preference has increased in most developed democracies, and that the picture is even worse in most developing democracies.

Rising Share of Respondents in Favor of a “Strong Leader” Instead of Elections

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There still isn’t a lot of cross-country, longitudinal data about attitudes to democracy. Perhaps the last years are an anomaly. Or perhaps new evidence, taking into account the shift from 2012 to date, will show a continuation of the trend. Many of these questions will be answered in 2017-19, when the World Values Survey conducts its next round of surveys. So it’s important to keep an open mind and to avoid panic.

But the opposite of panic is not calm; it is complacency. And complacency has been the dominant response of Western elites to the looming threats of Brexit, of Donald Trump and of the rise of illiberal politics. The comforting assumption that the past will remain a reliable guide to the future — that countries would not vote for extreme candidates when they never have before, or indeed that core norms of liberal democracy wouldn’t come under attack where democracy has always been “the only game in town” — hasn’t worked out very well so far. Now is the time to stop being complacent.
Washington Post
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#14748355
Ok, so they identify a trend. They don't offer an explanation as to why faith in democracy is declining. I wonder how this data would correlate with data on income disparities or the amount of time watching TV and using the internet? Just to be sure maybe look for correlations with increased sugar consumption. I'm sure the later will explain much.
#14748366
that countries would not vote for extreme candidates when they never have before,


Electing Trump for Americans is not even as extreme as electing JFK. His Catholicism for a president was considered extremism. Once again, that was in the media. The voters said otherwise again.
#14748395
I didn't analyze your data, but let's say the premise you posted is correct. I think what causes that is with today's advanced weaponry, it makes it easier for a dictator to control the population. A small army can control a lot of people, if those other people are not armed. Hence the premise of turning away from democracy is because heavily armed dictators and their complient army force the issue.
#14748397
A major problem with democracy I think is that so many groups are clamoring to be heard that it is like a chorus of instruments that ends up sounding like a herd of squawking birds. Everyone is yelling about something different.

People are in awe of modern weaponry and they fear anyone who is portrayed as being scary and mighty.

Many of the current leaders in the free world are viewed as being corrupt or evil and not worthy of respect. Dictators seem to have a way of getting people to listen to them, unfortunately.
#14748406
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke.


Our legislators have refused to do anything, so people will make a new choice. It may or may not be evil, but we will be rid of the people who would allow evil to triumph.
#14748412
The only people who can be elected in a western democracy are shills for business (who owns the media?). That is an 100% bastard rate for them. With dictators you do occasionally get a decent one who people can look up to.
#14748432
The only people who can be elected in a western democracy are shills for business (who owns the media?). That is an 100% bastard rate for them. With dictators you do occasionally get a decent one who people can look up to.


Every 4 years, half of us get to engage in wishful thinking for 60 days. Now is not the time for your reality.
#14748596
Decky wrote:The only people who can be elected in a western democracy are shills for business (who owns the media?). That is an 100% bastard rate for them. With dictators you do occasionally get a decent one who people can look up to.


This is increasingly true, of course. Although there have been interludes in which corporate power was seen as an issue and actually addressed by 'real' political parties with an independent power base.

There is no longer a possibility for independent parties in the US, and I don't see what happened with the Roosevelts happening again. No I'm not saying they were revolutionaries, but they did recognize that direct action was needed to 'save' the system. Effective reform within liberalism (the Sanders approach) is no longer achievable. Now the only options left are left populism, right populism, and police state neoliberalism.

Trump is offering the appearance of right populism, but his reality is police state neoliberalism. He is basically Clinton, minus the nod to minorities.
#14748603
A year ago I was angry with the Republicans for not allowing Obama to appoint a justice. Hillary and the media bias angered me so much that I became more conservative over night. So even knowing the media is attempting to influence me ends up influencing me. It almost makes you doubt free will still exists. I know we are being manipulated, but I can't seem to know the end game.
#14748606
Even if the trend is true, in my humble opinion it would still be obsolete any way,
There is and never was a democracy in the way it is described on paper anywhere in the world.
There are just varying degrees of freedom available in different societies across the globe. some aspects of these freedoms are now being eroded or they are diminishing, justified by scare tactics.

I always say. and I havent read this anywhere by the way , just my own thoughts:
When the decision of of the mass populous is based on information that is partly or wholly untrue, withheld, tainted or tampered with, then that democracy becomes void of substance and therefor farcical.
#14748613
The foundation of democracy is incoherent. The strains are now showing. Without an educated and relatively homogenous population, it cannot function. This mattered relatively little for the US in the nineteenth century, when its actions were not terribly important anyway.

No matter how you try and "re-jigger" the system (nod to Trump), the 50% apathetic can be controlled through manufactured consensus. The oligarchy and democracy now act hand-in hand.
#14748618
A democracy based upon capitalism has an inherent expiration date. It is very similar to a poker tournament. You have winners and losers. The winners take your chips and start a higher stakes game. Eventually there are no longer enough players for a game. Of course they move to globalism for the final games to find enough big money players. It is why I always bring up needing a law that only allows community residents to own property in a community. Without restricting ownership, we are always doomed.

Edit: Of course this is why the anti trust laws have always been circumvented just beyond the view of the common populace. We should have been alert and screaming, but we would have been called conspiracists.
#14748619
The foundation of democracy is incoherent. The strains are now showing. Without an educated and relatively homogenous population, it cannot function. This mattered relatively little for the US in the nineteenth century, when its actions were not terribly important anyway.

No matter how you try and "re-jigger" the system (nod to Trump), the 50% apathetic can be controlled through manufactured consensus. The oligarchy and democracy now act hand-in hand.

Just like 'free markets', democracy is based on a fundamentally unrealistic assumption: that all voters, like all market players, have perfect knowledge of everything all the time. In the gap between that assumption and reality, there is room for all sorts of shenanigans....
#14748636
Just take NAFTA for example. It went far beyond the original concept of free trade. NAFTA increased thresholds for reviews of takeover bids for domestic companies, placed limitations on government to regulate their financial service sector, and changed patent rules to favour bigger players. Take for example, investor-state dispute settlements (ISDS), which give special privilages to foreign investors to attack decisions that countries make, which could affect the foreign company. This is an extraordinarily powerful tool of special privilages that only foreign investors enjoy. Not even the domestic side has this right.

So, when your government has been sold out to foreign investors, what is the point of supporting democracy? You're essentially already living under a quasi-dictatorship, where the government is handcuffed to adopt any serious policies that would benefit society. This is why revolution is an important aspect of human society in order to reset a society stuck in a rut.
#14748640
One Degree wrote:We should have been alert and screaming, but we would have been called conspiracists.


So be it. If they can conspire why can't we? It's the balance of power that's important.
#14748650
It seems such attitudes can shift quite quickly.

For example in Egypt 15.8% responded with "strong leader" in the 2005-2009 wave. In the 2010-2014 wave 93.7% responded with "strong leader".

Ok, that's an extreme example :).

The lowest support for "strong leader" in the 2010-2014 wave has Ghana with 14.4%.

quetzalcoatl wrote:The foundation of democracy is incoherent. The strains are now showing. Without an educated and relatively homogenous population, it cannot function.

One Degree wrote:A democracy based upon capitalism has an inherent expiration date.

Drawing such conclusions from a survey question is a bit silly.

For example older generations that experienced WW2 or the cold war may have a different interpretation of "strong leader" than younger generations.
#14748656
As others have already mentioned democratic institutions have been neutered whilst decision making has been transfered to international bodies that operate with little transparency or oversight. Many people have never heard of the IMF, WTO, etc. and those that have are banned from even approaching them thanks to the 2 mile exclusion zones implemented whenever they meet.

It's little surprise that people hold a low opinion of democratic means following decades long efforts to undermine, subvert and weaken them.
#14748698
Patrickov wrote:So be it. If they can conspire why can't we? It's the balance of power that's important.


How important?
Important enough to justify anything at all?
Say the west won out right through conspiring and scheming, say there were no more worthy opponents any more anywhere to stand up to the western alliance.
Have you thought what would be the plight of the average Joe like me and you?

This is not about keeping the balance of power, on the contrary, its about tilting the balance of power.

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