Should the Separation of Church and State Apply to Irrational, Religiously-held Liberal Beliefs? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Mild necroposting has been permitted because it has always been mild but since it is growing into a bane it will no longer be tolerated.

Moderators are therefore advised to initially move necroposts into stand-alone threads and for repeat offenders to hand out official warnings if said posters continue the practice.
All general discussion about politics that doesn't belong in any of the other forums.

Moderator: PoFo Political Circus Mods

#14798561
Solar Cross understood what I was trying to say. I would go so far as to add that if the separation of church and state didn't exist, we might have seen actual officiated religions of leftism in the west because to many of them it is a religion in everything but name, so why did they stay away from naming it a religion and officiating it? I suspect people didn't put much effort into that because they knew it would be a legal minefield more than anything else.

All of these "the Old Testament shouldn't be in the Bible" people could have just made a derivative of Christianity that is liberalism + liberal arts Jesus and it would have probably been great for them.
#14799355
Hong Wu wrote:Solar Cross understood what I was trying to say. I would go so far as to add that if the separation of church and state didn't exist, we might have seen actual officiated religions of leftism in the west because to many of them it is a religion in everything but name, so why did they stay away from naming it a religion and officiating it? I suspect people didn't put much effort into that because they knew it would be a legal minefield more than anything else.

All of these "the Old Testament shouldn't be in the Bible" people could have just made a derivative of Christianity that is liberalism + liberal arts Jesus and it would have probably been great for them.


Yeah there is something in that. There was more than just the 1st amendment blocking them from just making a "derivative of Christianity that is liberalism + liberal arts Jesus" though but first I think it would do to spell out who "they" are. They are the people who in other centuries would have taken divinities and become a pastor, priest, rabbi or brahmin.

In those centuries they could make a nice position for themselves as community leaders, enjoy some status and even wealth without having do much except remind everyone that they held the keys to heaven. Sometimes they could even get kings to do their bidding. They had it good, they had it really good.

Then science happened. Well proto-science had been around since the some apeman figured out how to make fire but until say Galileo and then Darwin, proto-science was no serious threat to them. From Galileo to Darwin a seismic shift began, as the merchants and warriors increasingly fell out from the spell of the religionists and declared for science and secularism instead. From Darwin onwards the shift was all but complete and the worse thing is they, these people of priestly mind, knew it would never swing back in their favour, their gods were actually dead, killed by science and by association killed by the merchants and warriors who had consequently dumped the priests as their spiritual gurus.

From Darwin onwards it just gets worse and worse, the warriors and merchants make science sing delivering real world miracles, from atom bombs to auto-mobiles, miracles likes of which no priest could ever hold a candle to.. They were outclassed and humiliated by people that they had hitherto liked to consider their inferiors.

So what happens to a priestly mind that can't be a priest because such a thing is ridiculous in the Age of Science? He will try to adapt, to fight back, he will concoct and espouse a pseudo-religion that is sufficiently lacking in supernatural decor to pass as compatible with science but which serves as a proxy for the full blooded religion he could have wielded before Science: socialism, communism, anarchism, left-liberalism, gender theory, all are meme-ological weapons crafted to thrive in a post-supernatural world for regaining control from (and also for punishing) the merchants and warriors whom had betrayed them for science.

Priests are mind hackers, that is their power, their only power, and they aren't going to give up that power just because the supernatural was denied them.
Last edited by SolarCross on 22 Apr 2017 15:01, edited 1 time in total.
#14799360
Oh for fuck's sake...

This has been worse than a complete misunderstanding of the First Amendment? This has been a conspiracy theory leading to a secret understanding of the First Amendment applied for secret reasons by secret people against secret people?

Image
#14799367
So what happens to a priestly mind that can't be a priest because such a thing is ridiculous in the Age of Science?



Well this relies on facts not in evidence. Why do you think priests are "rediculous in the age of science"? What is obvious is that you do not understand faith and have no clue about what clergy do.

He will try to adapt, to fight back, he will concoct and espouse a pseudo-religion that is sufficiently lacking in supernatural decor to pass as compatible with science but which serves as a proxy for the full blooded religion he could have wielded before Science: socialism, communism, anarchism, left-liberalism, gender theory, all are meme-ological weapons crafted to thrive in a post-supernatural world for regaining control from (and also for punishing) the merchants and warriors whom had betrayed them for science.


Pseudo intellectual claptrap. You think you sound smart. You do not.

Priests are mind hackers, that is their power, their only power, and they aren't going to give up that power just because the supernatural was denied them.


Another nonsensical notion. Really son. This is pofo. We do not assume you have a point just because you string buzz words together. :roll:
#14800078
Pants-of-dog wrote:Priests as mind hackers is one of the themes of an early Neal Stephenson novel, Snow Crash. Good read.

Please note that it is a work of fiction


I haven't read it but from googling I think the mind hacking in the book is more literal than metaphorical. When I say religionists are mind hackers I mean it as a metaphor.

Priests create narratives for exploiting the foibles of human psychology not unlike how computer hackers create viruses and other devices to exploit the foibles of Information technology. The obvious and probably most useful foible of human psychology which the religionists exploit is the fear of death. To manipulate people using this emotional lever they create an after life which solves the fear of death but with conditions set by the priest.

After the scientists destroyed the cosmology of the religionists the new religionists have to craft religions with the barest minimum of supernatural devices. This has also meant they had to give up the after-life device which exploits the fear of death. The new secular religions (communism, anarchism, fascism etc) then have to exploit with their narratives other aspects of human psychology such as envy and the revenge dynamic. These are weaker than the fear of death exploit though hence why the new religions are generally weaker and do not last long comparatively before their power to influence diminishes. Christianity is considerably older than communism but communism is already well past its prime while Christianity still lingers on. Christianity is powered by the strong force that is the fear of death while communism is powered only by the much weaker force of envy.
#14800082
Even if we are to accept your conspiracy theory, the First Amendment is about the state keeping out of religion's way as much as religion keeps out of the state's way.

What you propose is tantimont to saying, "Jews can no longer serve in government functions," or whatever. And the First Amendment prevents that, not acts as a tool to do so.

But beyond that, your brand of liberalism--whatever you want to dress it up as--is just as much of a "religion," as any other political ideology like communism. I suspect you know this, you just think it's really edgy to look so ignorant on the internet :lol:
#14800091
SolarCross wrote:I haven't read it but from googling I think the mind hacking in the book is more literal than metaphorical. When I say religionists are mind hackers I mean it as a metaphor.

Priests create narratives for exploiting the foibles of human psychology not unlike how computer hackers create viruses and other devices to exploit the foibles of Information technology. The obvious and probably most useful foible of human psychology which the religionists exploit is the fear of death. To manipulate people using this emotional lever they create an after life which solves the fear of death but with conditions set by the priest.

After the scientists destroyed the cosmology of the religionists the new religionists have to craft religions with the barest minimum of supernatural devices. This has also meant they had to give up the after-life device which exploits the fear of death. The new secular religions (communism, anarchism, fascism etc) then have to exploit with their narratives other aspects of human psychology such as envy and the revenge dynamic. These are weaker than the fear of death exploit though hence why the new religions are generally weaker and do not last long comparatively before their power to influence diminishes. Christianity is considerably older than communism but communism is already well past its prime while Christianity still lingers on. Christianity is powered by the strong force that is the fear of death while communism is powered only by the much weaker force of envy.


What religious power inspired conservatives to ignore facts, science, history, and their own constitution?
#14800123
SolarCross wrote:The new secular religions (communism, anarchism, fascism etc) then have to exploit with their narratives other aspects of human psychology such as envy and the revenge dynamic.

If we do accept your idea that there is a type of person who was once drawn to the priesthood as a place for their talents/desires, but had to find alternative positions once the bottom fell out of the supernatural game, then that "etc" is covering a huge number of unlisted areas. Envy, for instance, shows up most obviously in consumerism, with those working in marketing being the new priests. And the revenge dynamic resides most comfortably in nationalism. Trump's campaign and election is the biggest expression of this so far - driven almost entirely by desires for revenge on Mexicans, Muslims, LGBT, Democrats, and women. Let's hope nothing even more explicitly about revenge ever comes along.
#14800244
What is odd is that many of you seem to simply accept that there is some great schism between religion ans science. There really isn't. Not here in the US. I am very involved in the ecumenical work of the religious community and do not see must distension at all.

People are not losing their faith to science. They are losing it to apathy and inaction on the part of religious organizations. My religious organization is inundated with volunteers. This Sunday we have a bunch of Mensa members coming to volunteer right alongside our local universities medical school. Nobody cares how long it took to create the world. That is, after all, simply a history quiz question. What we all care about is that this religious organization allows people to do what Christ told us to do and that message is appealing to religious and some nonreligious alike.

So how about ya'll drop the "science killed religion" narrative for the best reason of all. It didn't.
#14800262
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:If we do accept your idea that there is a type of person who was once drawn to the priesthood as a place for their talents/desires, but had to find alternative positions once the bottom fell out of the supernatural game, then that "etc" is covering a huge number of unlisted areas. Envy, for instance, shows up most obviously in consumerism, with those working in marketing being the new priests. And the revenge dynamic resides most comfortably in nationalism. Trump's campaign and election is the biggest expression of this so far - driven almost entirely by desires for revenge on Mexicans, Muslims, LGBT, Democrats, and women. Let's hope nothing even more explicitly about revenge ever comes along.


Well thank you for giving my kooky little idea a fair hearing, it is appreciated. I will say you are right to look at consumerism and see a priest like operation, mind hacking, and also with nationalism. I will expand on consumerism first.

At first glance consumerism seems to be wholly a merchant thing and nothing to do with priests as it is all about selling more product for merchants. However, whatever marxists might otherwise allude, merchants or capitalists have existed for as long as there has been civilisation yet as much as they have always wanted to sell product the kind of advanced psychological manipulation employed to facilitate sales as seen in modern marketing was hardly present at all until very recently. The decidedly priestly Noam Chomsky identifies a certain Edward Bernays as the turning point in marketing from plain information sharing to psychological manipulation, (set a priest to catch a priest?). Marketing before Bernays was simply a matter of informing potential customers of what you had to sell, its virtues and asking for a tolerable price in return and it should be said that for most merchants that is still how marketing is done, ever seen a pack of nails being presented to you as a purchasable proof of your god-like masculinity? No, but you probably had a pair of shoes marketed that way to you at some point.

This is highly speculative but when the "bottom falls out of the supernatural" as you put it, the priestly types will not just cast about for a secular religion to use to position themselves as a new kind of community leader (eg: commissar) but some will also just concede defeat and seek to trade on their talents by making themselves useful to the rising powers of the merchants and warriors, to the former as marketing men and to the latter as propagandists.

And so is born nationalism for what else is nationalism but a religion perfectly adapted to the needs of warriors? Warriors have always warred it is what they are all about and the winning of wars is paramount as losing a war is generally fatal. Winning has always been a bit of numbers game, he who has more wins. Yet until nationalism getting bodies to fight for you was always a bit of struggle, those bodies wanted paying which gets expensive fast or they had to be bullied or even enslaved which is pretty much playing with fire in itself given you are going to arm these people you have just injured... But then with nationalism the warriors go from being some obnoxious and dreaded lord to being the adored father of the nation and all those who hitherto had to be paid or bullied to bulk out your forces would happily volunteer in vast numbers for the chance to become heroes protecting "their" nation and the father-like super parents ruling it.

The whole idea of the fatherland or motherland is a trick that looks copied whole cloth from traditional religion, just as priests short circuit the stranger danger mistrust reaction by insinuating themselves as "fathers" and "brothers".

So yeah with the death of the supernatural the mind hackers suffered an occupational diaspora, some persisted with the old religions because inertia is a thing, some crafted new religions that were just materialistic enough to pass as science compatible (communism etc) and some threw their lot in with the merchants as admen and some threw their lot in with the warriors as propagandists.
WHY IS TURKEY ALLOWED TO EXIST!?

The West Fucked with that whole area. It's hard to[…]

1. Comey had a 10 yr contract which was no where […]

A step forward. This whole gerrymandering business[…]

Trump fires FBI director James Comey

Accidental Double Post, Please Ignore