The Islamic terriorists strike again... What is the solution ? - Page 20 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14798497
anasawad wrote:@Elyzabeth

Where the fuck did you get this from ? Women are stated in the Quran to be equal to men. Literally stated that way.



1- No you actually cant beat a women in Islam. It is in fact stated directly in the Quran that men shall do no harm to their partners, meaning women. And that if a women was to do a great misdeed to her partner, he is to punish her by moving away from her, as in not talking to her and keep his distance which is basically emotional punishment for her actions against hem if she was to do something.

2- The punishment for rape in the Quran is either the mutilation of all the limbs of the rapist or simply crucifixion.
Yup, seems very acceptable to rape under Islamic law. :knife:

3- Stonning wasn't mentioned at all in the Quran or anywhere. Sharia law include wipping and under specific form for minor crimes of both men and women. And the main rule mentioned in the Quran, Sunnah, And all the following sources that the person doing it when striking as stated literally "the whiteness of his armpits should not be revealed"
Which means the one doing should not do it in a hard way.
That is this punishment is more of public shaming in physical form than it is a serious physical punishment.
Stonning was an Arabian custom for punishment, and for both genders and it was removed with Islam until the people of Najd returned to using it under Abdallah ben Wahhab and still use it to this day. They're known as Wahabis.




The criminal justice system does not mention 4 male witnesses, thats just some bullshit westerners created to demonize Muslims.
The criminal justice laws in Islam require before a conviction is made 4 witnesses or evidence that are concrete and cant be disputed for a conviction is made.
There is not a mention anywhere in the Quran or the Hadith that 4 male witnesses are needed to proof a rape or any crime and i dare you to show something from a credible source of these (i.e Quran or Hadith) to support your bullshit claim.


The only place in the entirety of Quran and the Hadith that men get more than women is inheritance.
Men get twice as much. And the reason behind it is that women are more likely to stay at home and take care of children (yes that is also true for western societies even to this very day, thats why the gender wage gap exist) while the husband is expected to support the household.
So, in inheritance, it is made that men get twice as much as women as they need to provide a house and support the household and thus need more money, while women don't or didn't need to do that specially in traditional societies and thus don't need that extra share outside the initial split.

And note that i memorize all of the Quran and was taught the rules and corners of Sharia by my mother whom have a PhD in Islamic law and anther in Fiqh along with a degree in Arabic language and literature Which means she's considered a scholar of Islam.


So what you are implying is that Muslim women enjoy walking around outside wearing burkas in 100 degree heat. You are implying that they are not forced to do that by Muslim men...or any other subjugative behavior. You are implying that Muslim women like being treated as second class citizens, sometimes like slaves.

Frankly, you're not fooling anyone, except perhaps yourself.
#14798498
@stephen50right
You're implying that the traditions and culture of Wahabi conquerors whom conquered a significant land of the middle east to enforce their own traditions that predates Islam by centuries is what Islam is, even when the overall majority of Muslims not living under the enforcement of Wahabi traditions and cultural norms clearly do not follow or even accept to live under such cult and literally go to war to make sure its not enforced on them as is clearly shown in what is currently happening in the middle east where this cult with the support of western governments is trying to conquer more Muslim lands and enforce its rule on them and all are fighting war to the death to stop them.

In such, only you are the one showing your self as an ignorant that knows nothing of the reality of the topic.
#14798500
anasawad wrote:@stephen50right
You're implying that the traditions and culture of Wahabi conquerors whom conquered a significant land of the middle east to enforce their own traditions that predates Islam by centuries is what Islam is, even when the overall majority of Muslims not living under the enforcement of Wahabi traditions and cultural norms clearly do not follow or even accept to live under such cult and literally go to war to make sure its not enforced on them as is clearly shown in what is currently happening in the middle east where this cult with the support of western governments is trying to conquer more Muslim lands and enforce its rule on them and all are fighting war to the death to stop them.

In such, only you are the one showing your self as an ignorant that knows nothing of the reality of the topic.


I use the "eye test" about Islamic terrorists, not leftist propaganda.
#14798502
@stephen50right
Then by that logic. I can use the "eye test" to tell that ALL Americans are murderers and rapists and child killers.

Now i know its a bunch of mercenaries and criminals doing all these in the name of Americans and their country. But, nevertheless, the "eye test" tells me this is what Americans are. Because as far as i see, both American soldiers in war and Americans back home in their own country act the same so it must be all of them. right ?


And really ? Leftist propaganda ? Well, Muslims must truly be a glorious hive mind if over a billion people all agreed with each other to make a massive act to portray an image different to what you say.

Saudi Arabia has 28 million residents with less than 20 million being actual citizens. And less than 10% of that are actually Wahabis who conquered the rest with foreign support.
What you're saying is basically, a tribe with couple of millions in size , conquering and enforcing a law on millions other that is basically a mixture of their own 2000+ years old tribal tradition with Islam filling the blanks that their traditions doesn't is now what the billion other muslims believe in. And worst of all, even when The very text of Islam disagrees with you.
#14798503
anasawad wrote:@stephen50right
Then by that logic. I can use the "eye test" to tell that ALL Americans are murderers and rapists and child killers.

Now i know its a bunch of mercenaries and criminals doing all these in the name of Americans and their country. But, nevertheless, the "eye test" tells me this is what Americans are. Because as far as i see, both American soldiers in war and Americans back home in their own country act the same so it must be all of them. right ?


And really ? Leftist propaganda ? Well, Muslims must truly be a glorious hive mind if over a billion people all agreed with each other to make a massive act to portray an image different to what you say.

Saudi Arabia has 28 million residents with less than 20 million being actual citizens. And less than 10% of that are actually Wahabis who conquered the rest with foreign support.
What you're saying is basically, a tribe with couple of millions in size , conquering and enforcing a law on millions other that is basically a mixture of their own 2000+ years old tribal tradition with Islam filling the blanks that their traditions doesn't is now what the billion other muslims believe in. And worst of all, even when The very text of Islam disagrees with you.


I do business with a number of Muslims, and they are honorable people, so I am not anti-Muslim by any means. However I am against Imams who too often support and promote the hateful and violent elements of Islam, and inspire terrorism, and you know that's the truth. That sort of behavior by so many religious leaders of one religion is not seen in any other religion today. And please don't start siting other examples from hundreds of years ago, I'm talking about today, the eye test of almost every day a new Islamic terrorist attack in the world.
#14798505
@stephen50right
'm talking about today. Wahabi Imams, the ones spreading terrorism and all these crimes only became a thing recently. After Al-Saudi conquered the entirety of Arabia and enforced their laws and traditions.
And today, they're the ones spreading all these things, they're the ones doing terrorist attacks and human trafficking and all sorts of crimes you can mention. And The entire Islamic world that came in contact with them is up on arms to fight them in all the sense of the word. What do you think the current wars in Libya or Syria or Iraq or Yemen or Afghanistan or Pakistan are today ? All of those are wars against the Wahabis. They're attacking everyone and spreading war and chaos and destruction everywhere.
And their main center is Saudi Arabia, thats the first place they conquered and established their state in the mid 20th century.

And almost all of the things you keep saying that this is what Islam is and what Muslims are, is in reality only found in areas that Wahabis exist in and very rarely outside of it.


BTW, side note, they're more accurately considered a cult not a sect because if you looked at their practices and beleifs, you can trace pretty much all of it back to Abdullah Ben- Wahhab the founder of it.
Infact many here in the forum have multiple times quoted his teachings and interpretations in attempt to demonize Muslims as whole.
#14798506
@stephen50right Indonesia is 95% Muslim, and Burqas are extremely rare.
Typical MUSLIM Indonesian attire...

Image

Jordanian fashion...
Image

Culture plays more of a role in the burqa, than religion. Until you acknowledge that, you're talking shit.

stephen50right wrote:However I am against Imams who too often support and promote the hateful and violent elements of Islam, and inspire terrorism, and you know that's the truth.
Those are very rare, actually. Most places get rid of Imams with such hateful views.

Liberal Jewish and Muslim MPs condemn imams who called for the death of Jews
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... th-of-jews
#14798509
Godstud wrote:@stephen50right Indonesia is 95% Muslim, and Burqas are extremely rare.
Typical MUSLIM Indonesian attire...

Image

Jordanian fashion...
Image

Culture plays more of a role in the burqa, than religion. Until you acknowledge that, you're talking shit.

Those are very rare, actually. Most places get rid of Imams with such hateful views.

Liberal Jewish and Muslim MPs condemn imams who called for the death of Jews
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... th-of-jews


Very pretty pictures. I'm serious...very nice indeed.
#14798511
Image

Godstud, your pictures are worthless because I can pick and chose others to show something else about Muslim women's attire in Indonesia or any other Muslim-majority country.

There is a big difference between the Indonesian culture in the cities and in rural areas.

@anasawad
You are correct to say that theoretically Muslims should treat their women with respect and not beat them (too hard).
Every time someone will show you the lack of freedom of Muslim women you will say ah but that is only Wahabism. I do not believe that. The religious police is active not only in Saudi Arabia but also in Iran. No make up, no short skirts, covering hair is compulsory and yadda yadda yadda.
Please do not deny the obvious.

You also defend the way Iran practices democracy : people can vote. Yes, but only for candidates who are vetted and approved by some clerical council. That is not democracy my friend.

By the way, I am convinced you do not practice any of that nonsense in your family. And I can understand that you feel the need to defend your fellow religious people.
#14798517
@Ter

You are correct to say that theoretically Muslims should treat their women with respect and not beat them (too hard).

So if the Quran says they should do so. The ones who follow the rules as it is are not really following Islam. But the ones who don't follow the rules do follow Islam to the litter ?

You are correct to say that theoretically Muslims should treat their women with respect and not beat them (too hard).
Every time someone will show you the lack of freedom of Muslim women you will say ah but that is only Wahabism. I do not believe that. The religious police is active not only in Saudi Arabia but also in Iran. No make up, no short skirts, covering hair is compulsory and yadda yadda yadda.

Most Muslim countries do not have such rules and that is a fact that can be checked.
Iran has such rules in some provinces, namely the Azzari Turks provinces and no where near the extremes of Saudi Arabia and such. But not all provinces do have such policies since anything that the supreme court didn't put in the basic law, the provincial governments decide on it. That includes public decency and things like Drugs or Alchohol, etc
Thus if you go for example to Tehran province (not the administrive city but the province) they have public decency laws and ban drugs. (the clerics won the local government there)
Go to the province right next to it, Semnan, Weed and popi are legal. There are no public decency laws.
etc. (Its government is controlled by the reformists faction)

The above can be seen in reviewing the Iranian basic law. Neither of the above are part of it rather left to local governments along with many other things.
The death penalty however is applied for hard drugs smuggling. Drugs that are ruled destructive for society.

You also defend the way Iran practices democracy : people can vote. Yes, but only for candidates who are vetted and approved by some clerical council. That is not democracy my friend.


So how did the reformists win both the parliament, the Assembly of experts, the supreme court, and the military command in the past election and took control over 59% of the government seats ?
And also will be determining the next supreme leader in late 2019 once this term is over ?

It seems if the clerics determine who can run and who doesn't, the socialist left wont be able to win any election. Nor would they've been able to win the presidency and go negotiate a peace treaty with Israel inspite of what the clerics want (President Khatami). Which BTW, would have worked if George Bush refused under request from Saudi Arabia.
The vetting process that is done before the election is not determining who is wanted to run, but who is qualified to run. There are a number of tests and qualifications you need to pass before being able to run for a specific office. The tests are to see your knowledge and qualifications to hold the position.

Again, if the clerics decided everything. The other 3 political factions in Iran wont be able to get any seat in the government and wont be able to stand up against them.
The clerics, as i explained before, have their main support base with the Azzari Turks. Those have been growing in population in the past decade and now around 50% of the country which means other factions have to work extra hard to get their votes.


Do the clerics (whom are a political faction BTW, not a general term) have some control ? yes, they've managed to play their cards right and take over high positions in the government. However not all of it, and they don't control provincial governments only some of it mainly center and west of the country.
That is currently changing as they're losing election after election.
They managed to get 18% of the seats in the government in the last elections and they already don't have a chance in getting the presidency this election.
In short, by 2020, the clerics would have lost pretty much the entire government and become only a minor faction with the political stage being dominated by the reformists (socialist left with some communists) and the republicans ( centrists to center right )



EDIT:
And what exactly is wrong with the picture you posted ?
Is it considered bad to wear a normal hijab now ? You do know that Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and other religions also have one version or anther of a hijab right ?
#14798521
Whatever Islam actually says is obviously even up for debate within the community and can vary wildly. There is no blanket statement that applies to everyone. There are plenty of examples going both ways, and extremists are always minorities.

Anyway...

We have to deal with terrorists using Islam, or culture based around Islam, and being barbarous. This thread is about how to deal with that. Pretending that it doesn't exist won't really do much.
#14798527
@anasawad
OK, noted.
I am not very clear what you mean by "reformist" because that is a very relative term. But OK, no need to go into that.

anasawad wrote:And what exactly is wrong with the picture you posted ?

There is nothing wrong with the picture I posted.
I chose this one to show a more realistic picture of Indonesian women after Godstud posted the half-naked girls. I personally even prefer modest attire I kid you not. It is my personal opinion that women should not wear skirts hiding only half their underwear (if any) and expose tree quarters of their mammary glands.
#14798531
@Ter
Its a political faction that started in 1995 under president Khatami, Although he hemself is a theologian, however his political philosophy is a mixture of socialism and liberatarianism and since then the faction grew until it finally became dominant along with the republican faction after 2009-2010.

The reformists faction mainly became very popular in the past decade after it managed to take over the local governments in Khorasan region in north east of the country. And the system there witnessed major improvements there from massive improvements in education and infrastructure. Health care became mixed between state run and private as in there are both public and private hospitals and clinics, with the public being free and of high quality.
The formerly applied public decency laws were removed and a large improvement in tourism and industries took place. So the faction became even more popular and finally managed to go up to the federal level in the past 2 elections. Though this election it made much bigger presence and next months the reformist candidate Ghalibaf is running for the presidency and already have very good chances to win over Rouhani and Ahmadinejad.

The latest major push by the faction is to legalize weed and Opium nation wide, turning it from limited to some provinces to full nation and thus becoming a significant economic asset for the nation as whole. And it would also reduce the number of prisoners in other provinces since specially the provinces where the clerics have control, the prison population is significant mostly from drugs.
This should be decided soon in June parliament session, If the reformist faction managed to get the republicans or the independent seats to vote for it. It would pass with majority.



Generally. In Iran, there are 4 factions. You have the clerics, the moderates, the republicans and the reformists.


For the picture. True, i like girls to wear these types of styles personally. They look cute and classy in it. :p
Though personally i wouldn't want my wife to wear Hijab. It just doesn't suit her. And she's pretty much between Christian and Agnostic, although she's on papers a Muslim.



EDIT: And if you're wondering, yes, I am excited about the next election. We're taking a special trip to Iran just to vote for Ghalibaf. :p
#14798569
Eamonor wrote:What about the members of the womens march who wore Hijab and joined in loud chants of "Allahu Akbar!" were they not leftists or does the Hijab and Allah have nothing to do with Islam?


Maybe they were Muslims?

Crazy talk, I know, but people can be leftists and Muslims, and this still does not mean that leftists support Muslism in everything that Muslims do.

Of course, Decky is probably closer to the mark.
#14798620
Pants-of-dog wrote:Maybe they were Muslims?

Crazy talk, I know, but people can be leftists and Muslims, and this still does not mean that leftists support Muslism in everything that Muslims do.

Of course, Decky is probably closer to the mark.


Or you can also be an Islamist who sees the angry left with their vitriolic hatred of all things white and western as useful idiots, and their protests as a golden opportunity to garner sympathy and support for the Islamist agenda.
#14798629
Of course they will! The right will forever exploit disunity/disharmony anywhere it goes, in any shape it takes. Like the British did in India or the Japanese in China or Sweden in Germany (Thirty Years War).

I can understand, and to a certain point respect, your political beliefs if you are concisely aware that they are formed purely on a short-sighted self-serving aspect of life. To the rest of us, the only thing that separates you from the very thing you despise is a difference in circumstance.
#14798635
AJS wrote:Or you can also be an Islamist who sees the angry left with their vitriolic hatred of all things white and western as useful idiots, and their protests as a golden opportunity to garner sympathy and support for the Islamist agenda.


Do you have a survey of leftists showing that the majority (or even a significant minority) support Islamism?
#14798831
AJS wrote:You're missing the point. On purpose. Again.

I didn't say the left support Islamism, I said Islamists see the left as fertile ground for gaining support for Islamist causes.



.....which is only useful for Islamists if they can convince the leftists to support their causes.

So, you are either arguing that leftists support Islamist causes or that they are about to. Now, you cannot provide evidence for the unsupportable claim that leftists are about to support Islamist causes, so I am asking for the supportable claim that some already do.

Now, please present the evidence. Thanks.
#14798847
You know I never really thought I would hear someone say this:

I didn't say the left support Islamism, I said Islamists see the left as fertile ground for gaining support for Islamist causes.


I mean really. Get a fucking grip. I can't imagine any piece of "logic" more convoluted than this. It is tantamount to saying that the far right loves communism because its worker committees are very much like states rights.

Islamists, should they possess the intelligence of a gnat, should see the far left as their worst nightmare. Please acquaint yourself with the term Islamist.
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