[stephen50right]

So. Somewhere in your "mind" you have concluded that the Marshal Plan was a bad investment? I am getting so tired of the right. Seriously shortsighted. Decidedly dense. And education? What education?

The Marshal plan for Europe was a great investment, we all know that, so please stop acting silly.

A "Marshal Plan" for Middle East Muslims? We've already sort of been doing that for decades in the form of OPEC artificially inflating the price of oil.

[Godstud]

No, the US and the West has been doing nothing of the kind. Tossing money at rich Arabian monarchies, for oil, has done nothing to help the people there, and the sanctions against Iraq(91 to 03) caused immeasurable damage.

[stephen50right]

No, the US and the West has been doing nothing of the kind. Tossing money at rich Arabian monarchies, for oil, has done nothing to help the people there, and the sanctions against Iraq(91 to 03) caused immeasurable damage.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart. These Arabs just happened to be lucky, in living on top of rich supplies of oil.

I would agree that it's shameful that these Arab monarchies haven't taken better care of their own people, and haven't adequately helped Muslim refugees which of course are people of their own religion.

[Godstud]

The US bombing them sure doesn't help.

US meddling in their politics(See Iran), doesn't help either.

The amount of meddling and general shitty foreign policy by the USA in the Middle East is quite staggering. Saying they "helped" is simply laughable.


The terrorists responsible for the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 sent a letter to the New York Times which stated, in part: “We declare our responsibility for the explosion on the mentioned building. This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel the state of terrorism and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region.”

In November 2002, a taped message from Osama bin Laden began: “The road to safety begins by ending the aggression. Reciprocal treatment is part of justice. The [terrorist] incidents that have taken place … are only reactions and reciprocal actions.”

The US helped, all right...
Former US president Jimmy Carter told the New York Times in a 1989 interview:

We sent Marines into Lebanon and you only have to go to Lebanon, to Syria or to Jordan to witness first-hand the intense hatred among many people for the United States because we bombed and shelled and unmercifully killed totally innocent villagers – women and children and farmers and housewives – in those villages around Beirut. … As a result of that … we became kind of a Satan in the minds of those who are deeply resentful. That is what precipitated the taking of our hostages and that is what has precipitated some of the terrorist attacks.

Colin Powell has also revealed that he knows better. Writing of this same 1983 Lebanon debacle in his memoir, he forgoes clichŽs about terrorists hating democracy: “The U.S.S. New Jersey started hurling 16-inch shells into the mountains above Beirut, in World War II style, as if we were softening up the beaches on some Pacific atoll prior to an invasion. What we tend to overlook in such situations is that other people will react much as we would.”
https://williamblum.org/chapters/freein ... -terrorism

[noir]

The Marshal Plan worked wonders in Germany and Japan. They aren't our enemies now, and never will be again.

Neocon wishful thinking. It turned out to be Arabs are not Germans and Japanese

[Godstud]

No one ever treated the Arabs as well as the Japanese and Germans were treated, after the war. It's not comparable. The US has spent the last 60 years wrecking the Middle East, not helping.

[noir]

They are not German and Japanese. Surely the Jap and Ger have their own bad experience from the first months.

[Godstud]

Wow. You are so insightful. Also, very wrong.

A Guide to Mideast Policy from Harry Truman to George W. Bush
https://www.thoughtco.com/us-and-middle ... 45-2353681

“Ancient History”: U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly of Intervention
https://www.cato.org/publications/polic ... tervention

[Zagadka]

There is nothing inherently worse in being Arabs etc. The problem is cultural, and culture is a reflection of environment. If quality of life were much higher, the extremists would have less traction. People wouldn't be so willing to blow themselves up if their biggest concern was catching the Game of Thrones finale.

[Rich]

The first step of any problem should be to stop bombing them.

Let me know when we do that.

The problem in Syria is not us bombing Muslims, but us bombing Infidels and us continually sabotaging the Assad regimes attempts to defend itself. Muslim terrorists need to be militarily resisted and bombing is an essential part of that resistance. What is clear is that the legendary moderate Sunni Arab Muslim "majority" have proved utterly incapable of controlling the Jihadist "minority".

But of course these attacks in the West are not protesting our attacks on the Assad regime, the Houthis or even Israeli attacks on Hezbollah, but our attacks on ISIS.

[noir]

The US helped, all right...
Former US president Jimmy Carter told the New York Times in a 1989 interview:

Says the man who brought us Bin Laden

[Godstud]

But of course these attacks in the West are not protesting our attacks on the Assad regime, the Houthis or even Israeli attacks on Hezbollah, but our attacks on ISIS.

No. You're wrong, as usual. Bombing ISIS has been utterly without success. 3 years later, they're still there. People are protesting the bombing because it's a waste of time, and fuels terrorism. It is is not a solution.

[AJS]

There is nothing inherently worse in being Arabs etc. The problem is cultural, and culture is a reflection of environment. If quality of life were much higher, the extremists would have less traction. People wouldn't be so willing to blow themselves up if their biggest concern was catching the Game of Thrones finale.

Qatar, the UAE and Kuwait have high standards of living. Not just for a few royals but their citizens as a whole and even many foreign workers who live there. They have infrastructure and have never been bombed.

True they're much better places to live than Iraq or Yemen but it's still only because of oil money. They still support extremist groups, they still fund radical imams. They still have stoning and other huddud punishments enshrined in their legal systems.

It is unclear if their relative peace will last without huge oil wealth should it ever need to, but even if that was the answer the west can't afford to give that level of prosperity to the entire region for decades to come.

Iran was relatively prosperous in the 1960s amd 70s before the Islamic revolution. Turkey still is fairly prosperous and has just voted to restore the caliphate.

Japan is probably the most relevant parallel.

The post war reconstruction wasn't just about building bridges and factories but a whole thorough reform of Japan's political and religious life

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto_Directive

[Suntzu]

Islam is incompatible with Western culture. The solution is to convert to Islam or keep 'em out.

[Zagadka]

Islam is incompatible with Western culture.

Very possibly. That does not mean that they can not shift their own culture to modern concepts. Places like Afghanistan had made a lot of progress before we released the kraken.

[noir]

Japan is probably the most relevant parallel.

The post war reconstruction wasn't just about building bridges and factories but a whole thorough reform of Japan's political and religious life

But they cooperated. Muslim world was always a problem to the west.

At a meeting of the war committee in July 1916 Sir Mark Sykes who played a leading part in policy-making and diplomacy with respect to the Middle East, urged on the government a definitely pro-Arab policy which should be free from social discrimination or the idea of a ruling race, 'in my opinion Arabs cannot be run on the lines of the "white man's" burden. The Arabs have many faults and failings, but they have physique, fire and nimbleness of mind and a sense of breed which makes it impossible to adopt the white versus coloured attitude towards them.'

[AJS]

Japan only cooperated after getting nuked.
We had cooperation in Iraq and Afghanistan and we chose to support a Sharia based constitution.

[noir]

Fine. All the nukes in the world will not change the Muslims since it's religion thrived in death and martyrdom. You need to read carefully the history of Japan.

[AJS]

The point isn't nuking them. The point is bringing about a deep cultural and religious change which will take away the religious imperative for warfare. It worked in Japan, I don't see why we shouldn't at least attempt the same in the ME.

[Suntzu]

MTV would be more effective than all the nukes.