Will Osama Bin Laden be the new Che Guevara? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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English speakers, anecdotally, also seem to be much more prone to abbreviate what is said. I notice they're far more likely to shorten names than other European languages (in my observation, though someone may correct me).

Also, we tend to drop words in sentences and, especially in certain dialects, let things slur together. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but my students often drop, "that," from sentences.

Also, though I will never surrender the fight, I feel like the word, "led," has essentially become extinct. People are content to just have it be, "lead," in both tenses in the same way, "read," works for both sentences. At first blush this kind of thing may seem like a kind of efficiency, but it adds to ambiguity.
Lenin wrote:Most of the Eastern peoples are in a worse position than the most backward country in Europe-Russia. But in our struggle against feudal survivals and capitalism, we succeeded in uniting the peasants and workers of Russia; and it was because the peasants and workers united against capitalism and feudalism that our victory was so easy. Here contact with the peoples of the East is particularly important, because the majority of the Eastern peoples are typical representatives of the working people-not workers who have passed through the school of capitalist factories, but typical representatives of the working and exploited peasant masses who are victims of medieval oppression. The Russian revolution showed how the proletarians, after defeating capitalism and uniting with the vast diffuse mass of working peasants, rose up victoriously against medieval oppression. Our Soviet Republic must now muster all the awakening peoples of the East and, together with them, wage a struggle against international imperialism.

In this respect you are confronted with a task which has not previously confronted the Communists of the world: relying upon the general theory and practice of communism, you must adapt yourselves to specific conditions such as do not exist in the European countries; you must be able to apply that theory and practice to conditions in which the bulk of the population are peasants, and in which the task is to wage a struggle against medieval survivals and not against capitalism. That is a difficult and specific task, but a very thankful one, because masses that have taken no part in the struggle up to now are being drawn into it, and also because the organisation of communist cells in the East gives you an opportunity to maintain the closest contact with the Third International. You must find specific forms for this alliance of the foremost proletarians of the world with the labouring and exploited masses of the East whose conditions are in many cases medieval. We have accomplished on a small scale in our country what you will do on a big scale and in big countries. And that latter task you will, I hope, perform with success. Thanks to the communist organisations in the East, of which you here are the represelitatives, you have contact with the advanced revolutionary proletariat. Your task is to continue to ensure that communist propaganda is carried on in every country in a language the people understand.

A century ago, the leftists took on the project of secularizing and modernizing the Middle East.

And, though a lot change, that was still the project the Soviets were wedded to throughout the 60s and 70s.



Carter, a religious man himself, didn't like this and tried to stop the Soviets from interfering with this.

But it was Reagan that really decided to put a stop to modernization and secularization.


Sorry, Bin Laden is the rightwing's hero. The Western rightwing designed the policy, funded the rebels, armed and trained the militants, and on and on.

Eventually the freedom from secularization and modernity was given to the Afghan people by the US and UK.


And, in response, they were against secularization and modernity. Here is one of Osama's chief complaints against the US:

Osama bin Laden wrote:2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i)...You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator.
SolarCross wrote:Oh but Che and Osama indeed have a lot in common. Both are ideological warriors, crusaders of sort, both are the most pop famous of their respective breeds and both were eventually martyred by the US military or its allies, which by association means the red tribe.

Osama bin Laden is more of a Western media creation than anything else. Along with being a product of capitalist interests. Not a great inspiration for the future at all.

If you want a real activist who wrote interesting things down, there's Muammar Gaddafi and his Green Book.

Or... if you want a Jose Marti character who inspires political change, there's Sayyid Qutb whose son, Mohammed Qutb, influenced a generation of Islamic philosophers including Osama bin Laden and ex-president Morsi of Egypt. Once again, Sayyid actually wrote his philosophy down so others could read it. Like Che did. Or Jose Marti.

I would go with Gaddifi for the Man-Made River project and Green Book, along with his interestingly enlightened take on Islam and the Quran.

The Immortal Goon wrote:A century ago, the leftists took on the project of secularizing and modernizing the Middle East.

"The leftists" is too vague for this statement to have much significance. What's also important is the simultaneous attempt to either internationalize or sovereign-ize various nations. And all the arms-dealing with capitalism's worst dealers.
stephen50right wrote:Bin Laden wanted to kill the entire Saudi royal family kingdom. If that isn't societal anarchy, I'm not sure what is?

That does not make him an "anarchist", if he wants to replace the system.
Zagadka wrote:That does not make him an "anarchist", if he wants to replace the system.


Definition of anarchist
: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power
: a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You'd better contact the folks at Merriam-Webster and tell them that their definition is wrong.

Nice job catching their mistake.

We'll all look forward to reading the Zagadka Dictionary when you release it.
Anarchy and rebellion are not synonyms. A rebellion can be any ideology. Anarchy is something specific. It would have been clearer and more accurate if you'd used the term rebel since the rest of us wouldn't need to guess which definition from which dictionary you were using.
AFAIK wrote:Anarchy and rebellion are not synonyms. A rebellion can be any ideology.

I believe all true anarchists are socialists, but not all socialists are anarchists. Here are just a few of the many forms of anarchy.

stephen50right wrote:https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchist

Definition of anarchist
: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power
: a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

Those are the common definitions which more or less go back unchanged to the ancient greeks who first coined the word, but leftists have taken the word and given it a subtly different definition(s). Leftists understand the word to mean as definition 2 except where "Anarchy" is a kind of egalitarian utopia.

Zagadka wrote:That does not make him an "anarchist", if he wants to replace the system.

Every rebel wants to replace the system otherwise why rebel? Osama would replace "the system" with Islam or a purer kind of Islam, Che wanted to replace it with communism.

It is kind of beside the point arguing over their ideological differences because the reason OBL will get on the T-shirts of the most daring of young liberals is because he was an enemy of America as was Che. Che was a bigger threat by association because of the Cuban Missile Crisis and the Cold War but in the end did little harm. OBL represents a lesser threat but actually managed more damage in the end because of 9/11. Either way they are both enemies of America and were both martyred by the US military.

Last edited by SolarCross on 25 Apr 2017 13:08, edited 1 time in total.
a state of society without government or law.
political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control:
The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
Synonyms: lawlessness, disruption, turmoil.
anarchism (def 1).
lack of obedience to an authority; insubordination:
the anarchy of his rebellious teenage years.
confusion and disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

Does not compute.
I've read about the possibility of intelligent life on other planets and how we would intellectually communicate with them. It's a most fascinating subject of which I believe one day will come true.

You might ask, why did Stephen bring up space exploration in this thread? Because considering what a conservative must sometimes go thru to communicate with some on this forum, I think I may know how those future space explorers may feel.


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