Will Osama Bin Laden be the new Che Guevara? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14796866
It in no way validates your ignorance. But, as mentioned, this is really a more or less elaborate way for you to keep feeling like a victim. And since we're dealing with your snowflake feelings and the mental gymnastics you need to make to rationalize them, there is no expectations that your flimsy argument will make any sense.


I don't know if you realize how obsessed this makes you look - you bring this up in every thread with every person you disagree with about whatever. Just become aware of this weird habit and quit it, because it undermines everything else you may have to say in your post. Solar Cross identifies with neither "tribe," he's not even American, and he has no part in your identity olympics. I literally facepalm every time I stumble over your diatribe - it begins to read like copypasta.
#14796870
Frollein wrote:Solar Cross identifies with neither "tribe," he's not even American, and he has no part in your identity olympics. I literally facepalm every time I stumble over your diatribe - it begins to read like copypasta.


'Our' identity olympics? My suggestion to both you and @SolarCross is to cast out the beams in your own eyes. If Solar Cross gets to transcend the identity battles he has zero business confining the rest of the human race.
#14796875
In the context of this thread, yes, he made it specifically about the "Reds" and the "Blues," but my comment could have been made in any other thread and about any other post by TIG, because he's beginning to sound like a broken record. It's all a word salad with victims, snowflakes, feelings, and tears. I mean, if you want to come out, TIG, just say so. :)
#14796891
I'll stop pointing it out when people stop doing it.

I operate, and until relatively recently the forum on all sides operated, upon the presumed supremacy of facts and logic.

There was one member that notably disagreed with facts, but that was rather negligible.

Now every topic I go into are people spewing postmodern horseshit out of their mouths with nothing to back it up except their vaulted personal experiences interpreted through their feelings.

Frollein, you're an intelligent person. What do you suppose the merits of this argument is supposed to be:

SolarCross wrote:To us you are all one big tribe, that is notable for being grossly overweight, driving a huge SUV with gun rack, not know anything about history and says ye haw a lot, that is even though as Brit I am exposed to a great deal of US cultural products.


Horrifying grammar aside, the entire premise rests on what he feels.

There is no objective fact here, just that he is a British person that has been around US cultural products, so his feelings are now to be taken as objective reality.

---

This kind of postmodernist nonsense was something the left was once (reasonably) laughed about. It went from a useful comparison (The British interpretation of facts claim that the Raj was X; but the colonial perspective of the Indians was Y -- How do we reconcile these two experiences?); to a useless word salad (my experience as an X,Y,Z means that you cannot understand A,B,C because you can't possibly understand, 1,2,3).

Thankfully, that was mostly left behind.

And then resurrected from the dustbin by rightwingers that label anything they like as fake.

I do know that in Germany this isn't as severe, but there are Americans (and Brits) that will claim that climate data isn't real becauase they don't feel like it is, and their opinion as amateurs should have the same weight as experts.

That's a notable example, but it seeps into this. SolarCross watched an American TV show, so his diagnosis of a place he's never been feels accurate.

It's not unlike when JJJ cited Robocop as proof that Chicago had a crime problem. Which is not only a shit citation in of itself, but RoboCop takes place in Detroit. But it felt authentic to him, so why should facts and figures actually matter?

This is the same garbage. And I'll keep pointing it out as long as people keep doing it.
#14796896
The Immortal Goon wrote:And here, you're probably imagining a white Southerner from a non-coastal state. Which is hardly the same, "tribe," as a Wall Street asshole just because they vote Republican.

Your tactic, essentially, is the same as an American saying that all Europeans are whatever the most obnoxious Italian stereotype he imagines is, and then generously saying that he is willing to include latently gay Nazis as another category that Europeans are allowed to be.

It in no way validates your ignorance. But, as mentioned, this is really a more or less elaborate way for you to keep feeling like a victim. And since we're dealing with your snowflake feelings and the mental gymnastics you need to make to rationalize them, there is no expectations that your flimsy argument will make any sense.


You are ignoring that I am running with a paradigm presented to me by Scott Alexander, a jewish american, in his article I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup. Did you even read the article?

He does indicate that how people vote does not necessarily line up 100% with tribal allegiance. "A Wall Street arsehole" might well vote republican sometimes but that in itself does not make him a red tribe member. The parties are in the business of getting elected but to do that they to have to appeal at least in part to tribal allegiances however it is difficult to signal to one without alienating the other; if you throw down some rhetoric about guns preserving freedom then as much as you turn on the "god & guns" tribe you piss off the liberals. For this reason the parties get locked into servicing one tribe over the other but they will take votes from wherever they can get them. If you don't like Scott Alexander's tribal terminology then liberal vs conservative is a closer fit than democrat vs republican.

So rather than get hung up on red vs blue just think of this as liberal vs conservative and wonder how long it will be before a liberal swaps his edgy Che T-shirt for something more contemporary like an Osama T-shirt.
#14796921
There have been many, many very clever and brilliant Americans, who have done very clever and brilliant things. But I'm sorry when it come to politics Americans are stupid. We Europeans divide America into Red and blue because that's how America works. Look at the Presidential, Senate and House results. Look at the governors, State Houses and State Senates, look at city wide elections. Even elections for judges and prosecutors can often be reduced to the Blue red divide.

Is there any country in Europe that has such a crude and unsophisticated political culture as the United States. Obama care vs Trump care, good grief is that the best your system can produce? Its pathetic.
#14796947
SolarCross wrote:You are ignoring that I am running with a paradigm presented to me by Scott Alexander, a jewish american, in his article I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup. Did you even read the article?


Oh shit, you didn't mention that the blogpost was written by a Jew! Well, now that's just science because: Jew magic.

How could I ever question this science by bringing up remedial civic knowledge?

I guess your feelings on Jews has proven yourself right again.

Go on and let's here what a victim you are at the hands of the evil blue team.
#14797004
It turns out that there is an highly venerable SJW called Yuri Kochiyama who is quite open in her admiration of Osama Bin Laden alongside her other idols which include Che Guevara.

Los Angeles Indymedia : Activist News

I’m glad that you are curious why I consider Osama bin Laden as one of the people that I admire. To me, he is in the category of Malcolm X, Che Guevara, Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro, all leaders that I admire. They had much in common. Besides being strong leaders who brought consciousness to their people, they all had severe dislike for the US government and those who held power in the US. I think all of them felt the US government and its spokesmen were all arrogant, racist, hypocritical, self-righteous, and power hungry.

bin Laden may have come from a very wealthy family, but by the time he was twenty, he came to loathe the eliteness and class conduct of his family. But it was not a sudden break. Growth for anybody is not a sudden thing. We all develop gradually. After all, he was thrust by birth into a wealthy family. He tried to become a part of his family. However, he found too many differences between most of his family and himself. He did go through the usual experiences of being from a wealthy family; attending well-groomed colleges, meeting people in the circle of the “haves;” but what put him in another path was that he took the learning of Islam very seriously…

You asked, "Should freedom fighters support him?” Freedom fighters all over the world, and not just in the Muslim world, don’t just support him; they revere him; they join him in battle. He is no ordinary leader or an ordinary Muslim. He may have once been surrounded with luxuries, but he adapted to the realities of a hunted “terrorist leader,” living in caves and doing without modern commodities…He went through heaven and hell with his men…

You stated that some freedom fighters responded that bin Laden’s agenda is more reactionary and does not speak to the needs of the masses of people who exist under US dominance. bin Laden has been primarily fighting US dominance even when he received money from the US when he was fighting in Afghanistan. He was fighting for Islam and all people who believe in Islam, against westerners, especially the US--even when he was fighting against the Russians…I do not care what the US government or Americans feel--I think it’s shameful what this government has done from the beginning of its racist, loathsome history.

And today, when I think what the US military is doing, brazenly bombing country after country, to take oil resources, bringing about coups, assassinating leaders of other countries, and pitting neighbor nations against each other, and demonizing anyone who disagrees with US policy, and detaining and deporting countless immigrants from all over the world, I thank Islam for bin Laden. America’s greed, aggressiveness, and self-righteous arrogance must be stopped. War and weaponry must be abolished.


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#14797105
Both bin Laden and Comandante Guevara were fighting against US neo-imperialism. In both cases, the US was using its economic and military power to subvert and/or destroy local communities in order to enrich itself. El Comandante and bin Laden both used militant action against the same enemy.

To me, that is the where the similarity ends.

C. Guevara was a socialist, while bin Laden was an Islamist.

C. Guevara tried to free Latin America while minimising US reprisals, while bin Laden deliberately antagonised the US into large scale reprisals.

C. Guevara had widespread community support, while bin Laden supported his network with the drug trade.

As for the t-shirt thing, Che was a good looking guy, while bin Laden was not. This matters far more than some vague anti-Americansim. Most of the developing world has anti-American sentiment, but we are not going to appear on a t-shirt just because of that.
#14797226
And someone correct me if I'm wrong, Bin Laden was hiding in a camp in Pakistan in hopes that US forces wouldn't find him while Guevara was doing his thing and not hiding.

Godstud wrote:Bin Laden's dead. He's nothing but dead. He won't be anything new.


So true.
#14797265
MistyTiger wrote:And someone correct me if I'm wrong, Bin Laden was hiding in a camp in Pakistan in hopes that US forces wouldn't find him while Guevara was doing his thing and not hiding.


Osama would have been 10 yrs old when the CIA killed Guevara in 1967.
#14797743
It's imprecise, inefficient, and overly redundant, but it does roll off the tongue nicely, I'll give you that.

Zis expert assessment brought to you by a German.
#14797765
Miscommunication of the word "while" there. Misty meant "while" as in "comparison to" not "at the same time as"

"Whereas" would have been a better choice of word than "while". The English language can be imprecise and vague, but it has such a huge vocabulary that it is usually possible to be precise by choosing the right words. Expressing oneself precisely and unambiguously in languages such as Latin or French can be almost effortless, whereas it takes significant effort to express oneself precisely and unambiguously in English. Oh look, I just gave an example of the use of the word "whereas" in a comparison. :)

Please tell me that was sarcasm :eek:

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