Why the left is losing - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14804114
Zagadka wrote:For the billionth time, the opinions of Comey from the DNC are the inverse of the GOP. They cheered Comey when he opened up Hillary's emails the week before the election and now curse him. Both sides are stupid.


For the billion time you are wrong and partisan. Do we really need to compile a list.
We are talking about a president making a decision not a candidate. This is really about the loss of an election of which many opponents seem to have no respect for the office of the president. It doesn't matter if its Trump or Obama in office they all (in this case FBI) work for the president. If Hillary Clinton won the presidency the first thing she would have done is fire Comey and the Dems would party in the streets for a week.
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By Zagadka
#14804118
Dunno how I can be particularly partisan, at least more than anyone else. Either way you look at it, Comey did something that favored Trump, then did something that pissed off Trump. These actions resulted in the respective parties being happy and sad.

Because now the guy who had to recuse himself from investigating Trump is looking for a replacement for a person who can investigate Trump. Seems legit.
#14804122
Zagadka wrote:Dunno how I can be particularly partisan, at least more than anyone else. Either way you look at it, Comey did something that favored Trump, then did something that pissed off Trump. These actions resulted in the respective parties being happy and sad.

Because now the guy who had to recuse himself from investigating Trump is looking for a replacement for a person who can investigate Trump. Seems legit.


Im getting a little lost we probably agree more than not. Its amazing how much trouble the Clinton's caused by that server and lies and the cover up of it all. I give it to the left though, they have been able to completely turn this around on Trump when the Democrats put up the only presidential candidate in the history of this county to be under a FBI investigation while running for office. Who should Comey be more upset at ? Yet the narrative today is Trumps timing.
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By Zagadka
#14804124
All I want is an independent investigation. Both sides should want that. All I see is Trump dismantling things in his way. This frightens me for what he might do in the future. It is his attitude towards how the government checks work that bothers me. Believe me, I have and had no love for Clinton and she got what she deserved. Trump should also get what he deserves, and to know what that is, we need an investigation. There is more than enough smoke popping up around him to warrant a look.
#14804132
Zagadka wrote:All I want is an independent investigation. Both sides should want that. All I see is Trump dismantling things in his way. This frightens me for what he might do in the future. It is his attitude towards how the government checks work that bothers me. Believe me, I have and had no love for Clinton and she got what she deserved. Trump should also get what he deserves, and to know what that is, we need an investigation. There is more than enough smoke popping up around him to warrant a look.


If we can roll back 8 years many many people did say the same thing about Obama. Trump won, he is our president he is your President. If you don't believe that why are we talking? We have 3 different ongoing investigations and none are criminal. Who are you going to put on this special team? The Democrats have blocked every person the right appoints or proposes. The elected president puts "his people" in positions just like Obama fired Bush people and put his own yes men in positions. BTW What exactly does Trump deserve.

We go through this every time the Democrats lose an election. Why do they hate America so much?
#14804152
Comey got fired after requesting resources for the investigation. We allowed Clinton's emails to be investigated. Now let us investigate Trump. If you have nothing to hide, why should it be a problem? :?:
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By Hong Wu
#14804197
There is no "we" here, you aren't a part of any political movement that does investigations. The whole thing is a charade to manipulate hobbyists who can't accept their own political insignificance. If powerful people actually believed Trump was a Russian agent people would be getting killed.

As an intellectual movement the left seems to be pretty much out of ideas. All you hear about is open borders and raising the minimum wage, both ideas are economically illiterate.
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By Hong Wu
#14804200
Zagadka wrote:All I want is an independent investigation. Both sides should want that. All I see is Trump dismantling things in his way. This frightens me for what he might do in the future. It is his attitude towards how the government checks work that bothers me. Believe me, I have and had no love for Clinton and she got what she deserved. Trump should also get what he deserves, and to know what that is, we need an investigation. There is more than enough smoke popping up around him to warrant a look.

All I want is an investigation into whether the people paying Hillary and Obama for speeches are controlling their decisions, such as when it was leaked that Citibank picked Obama's cabinet. You realize this is more likely than Trump being a Russian agent?

Be honest, if you had to give a percent chance estimate that Trump is a Russian tool, would it break 1%? 0.1%? He's been a famous American for practically his whole life. It's like saying that Michael Jackson was a Manchurian candidate. You're a birther now.
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By Zagadka
#14804208
Hong Wu wrote:All I want is an investigation into whether the people paying Hillary and Obama for speeches are controlling their decisions, such as when it was leaked that Citibank picked Obama's cabinet. You realize this is more likely than Trump being a Russian agent?

Sure. I mean, it isn't like he literally appointed Citibank to his cabinet or openly called for Russians to hack anyone or has lost or had staff recuse themselves because of involvement, but if there is a crime involved, it warrants investigation. The problem is how you fairly approach legal prosecution of the people who run legal prosecutions. There is no citizen's court beyond elections and any time you try to make any investigation, it turns into a partisan shit show.
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By AFAIK
#14804221
Why are Trumpists still salty about Obama and Hillary?
Is it because Trump has achieved nothing of note after 4 months in office?
User avatar
By Ter
#14804224
AFAIK wrote:Why are Trumpists still salty about Obama and Hillary?
Is it because Trump has achieved nothing of note after 4 months in office?

I do not consider myself a Trumpist and I will desist calling you a Hillarist but saying he has achieved nothing is not correct:
- he has reduced illegal immigration from Mexico by 80%
- he has installed a new judge in the supreme court
- he has put companies on notice that producing cheaply overseas and selling their products in the US will come at an extra price. This will create more employment for Americans.

Maybe it is not a lot but it is not nothing.
User avatar
By Zagadka
#14804234
Ter wrote:- he has reduced illegal immigration from Mexico by 80%

He did indeed intimidate a lot of people from coming over, and I actually agree with many of his policies in policing those already here.

But he has not done that in a vacuum. It takes about 3 seconds.

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+c ... mmigration

How many of those articles are all positive? He is making huge cuts elsewhere, even in security forces like local police, the Coast Guard, and the TSA.

- he has installed a new judge in the supreme court

Filling a vacancy years old by the stupendous task of having his own party in control.

- he has put companies on notice that producing cheaply overseas and selling their products in the US will come at an extra price. This will create more employment for Americans.

Yet to be seen. He probably will bring more jobs in. Not even going to argue that point. I would speculate that the additional cost of production from employment will be passed along to the consumer, though. So far, everyone has been lukewarm about it. Even Mexico laughed at him and China changed his mind about their monetary policy after one fucking phone call with him.

It is the logic people don't quite comprehend: If labor costs for producing a product double, will the price of the product go up? Yep. That will be true even more for poor people, since they don't have the spare income. You could say that they now have jobs they didn't before (see below), but that just means everyone will need more to scrape by.

He has accomplished some things. Whether those accomplishments are good or bad, we will see. But acknowledging them without also acknowledging the cuts he is making in social programs, education, health care, social security, national police forces, etc is criminal. Our unemployment rate is 4.7% (around what Israel has), which isn't good, but it is hardly worth cutting those programs and potentially kicking off inflation of basic goods for the poorest to have to pay more for.

Which will pair nicely with Trump's cuts to welfare, health care, education (wait, went through that list a second ago) and food stamps. Are you poor? Fuck you! Hope your min wage 40 hour a week job that doesn't offer health care lets you save enough to get an education.

The other consequence could be that service-industry companies will just shrug and hire workers from other countries. If it is cheaper for them, they will simply do so. We already have a brain drain scenario in STEM.

And finally, his concept of how to fight immigration is childish. His wall is plain stupid. Policing more (like actually deporting people when found with a crime) I can agree with. But he is doing nothing to address the actual problems in the system - the literal system of becoming a legal migrant itself and the relations with, especially, Mexico. Criminals will find a way.
User avatar
By AFAIK
#14804248
I stand corrected, Trump has one noteworthy achievement- reducing illegal immigration. Getting a republican controlled congress to fill an 18 month old vacancy and talking bigly on trade are not achievements though.
#14804266
To drag this thread, kicking and screaming, back to the topic of "why the (liberal) left is losing)" (reminder: here's the OP: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=169014 , since no one's discussing it):

The thesis in the OP is that the modern major liberal left parties in developed countries are tending towards meritocratism - putting themselves forward as "the best people to run things", and assuming that what is 'best' is either already agreed, or the right and wrong side of an argument can be easily seen. The author thinks they need to represent a particular 'community', 'base' or 'constituency', rather than claiming to be able to represent everyone.

(He finishes with a silly "they need to demonstrate that they don't think they're any better than anybody else"; this is balls. Politicians always put themselves forward as being better than anybody else, and Trump won his election with the biggest display of self-love that politics has ever seen. Electorates have no problem with people they see as on their side saying they're the best; it's when the other side says it that it strengthens opposition)

The author plays around it, but I think his basic message is: you can't manage to represent everyone, and the left has abandoned the idea of being the parties of the poor or lowly-paid workers, so they have no base. Much of the right has gone back to anti-immigration, and appeals to an indigenous culture, and this is enough to form an in-group of voters who will support them automatically. The centre-right, who may find that distasteful, have thrown their lot in with the further right in the UK and USA, but not in the Netherlands, France, or Germany.

This does seem to be the basis of the British leave vote in the EU referendum, and Trump's victory (Trump, in particular, got a 'spite' vote - people who want others hurt - Mexicans, Muslims, poor people who need healthcare ...). As the OP article admits, this wasn't enough for Le Pen to win in France, though she did better that her dad. We'll see if the centre can form a government in the Netherlands, and if Merkel stays in control in her elections later.

It's a good question - do people desire groups to hate, more than wanting a general improvement, but which might not benefit them personally at all? I think it's not yet an inevitability, but some countries are toying with it.
#14804752
To all those calling for an "investigation" of Trump/Russia/voting etc. Come on now...we all know the Democratic Party and the left aren't interested in an investigation, they are only interested in a witch hunt.

Sorry to inform you that we are not going to allow the Democratic Party and their fellow witch hunters to stifle our goal of Make America Great Again.
User avatar
By Zagadka
#14804762
Nope, just want an investigation. I don't know if Trump did those things, or if someone in his camp did it for him. I would LIKE to know that, however. Some of us don't swear blind fealty to whatever party guy is in office.

Because it isn't like Trump begging Russians to hack Hillary was a witch hunt or anything.
#14814951
Why the left is losing ? Thats easy. Lets just ask a rich yet pretty bright guy:
Its class warfare, all right, but its my class, the rich class, thats declared it. And they are winning, though they really shouldnt.

- Warren Buffett; from memory; repeated statement over the years since about 2000, when he publically commented on the fact his secretary had to pay a higher percentage of her income than he himself despite the fact that Buffett wasnt using any kind of trickery at all to lower his taxes.
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