Civiocracy: The Ideology of Silicon Valley - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14814002
mikema63 wrote:It's fine to think it's silly. This is probably the third time I've had to point this out. But when you post about at least, as you've done above, give a little example.

When I joined the forum I was a crazy highschool libertarian raised by an American tea party family. People talked about how I was wrong and had dialouge with me. I learned stuff.

If people had just posted endless one liners about how everything I said was dumb I would've left in a few months and wouldn't have learned a damned thing.


Well, that's the thing. The ideological underpinnings of, and my Allah forgive me for using this word, libertarianism are in the form of arguments, making it possible to rationally engage.

The thing we have right here has no arguments.
#14814006
That could also be something to discuss. It's perfectly fair to address specific overarching issues with the OP.

My main thing here is that we need to move away from one line posts in on topic threads. If you aren't interested in discussing something for some reason or another then don't.
#14814039
Saeko wrote:Well, that's the thing. The ideological underpinnings of, and my Allah forgive me for using this word, libertarianism are in the form of arguments, making it possible to rationally engage.


To my knowledge libertarians would not deny "inherent conflicts of interest between citizens, the government, corporations or other nations".

Classical liberalism is not an ideology some Silicon Valley jerk who wants to sell books came up with.
#14814101
@Rugoz

All ideologies are a bunch of ideas. Hell conservatism and liberalism are by far one of the most incoherent. If you want true coherence there's libertarianism however libertarianism has a stupid assumption about humanity as well, that by being selfish you help all parties which is false.

That is idealism and an assumption I disagree with. You should note that the only objective proof we have is the statistics, that represents the ideology itself and to me, that's what matters. I agree that the idea that there are no major conflicts of interest to be naive however that does not reflect the actual policies Silicon Valley supports.

@AFAIK

That is a very interesting thought and I agree. However there are two problems I see here. First, you focus too much on the free market aspects of the supported policies while ignoring the Silicon Valley's support for government intervention which would also affect business. Often Silicon Valley founders support either Basic Income or a Job Guarantee. Both can potentially be another thorn on their business (people may make new businesses or simply do something else instead of working for the tech businesses or, in the case of the Job Guarantee, find their given job to be better than finding a new job so they won't bother with the high expectations and atrocious interviews of Google and Microsoft ) however they support it anyways fully understanding what could happen. This is because mostly they see themselves in the positions of the citizens and not as businesses. The second thing is that this does not delegitimize the ideology. Simply because of the motives of the businesses does not mean that the ideology is wrong or won't do wonders to an economy or the well-being of it's citizens. Free trade or open borders shouldn't be discarded simply because big businesses support them because these policies will also positively affect not just small businesses, but normal people as well.

The rest is simply a continuation of attempting to delegitimize the ideology because tech businesses support them. However I will check out Post Capitalism since that book seems interesting. I'll first try to find a PDF though. However I do know that Hackers and small Startup founders specifically support the open-source movement for obvious reasons but also some established Silicon Valley founders.
#14814150
@Saeko

Hey, look! A situation in which the word Allah is used well! Wow!

Actually I'm not being sarcastic here. The way you used the word Allah (which means God but you seem to already know that) is top notch! (is that how you English people say it? Top notch? Eh, it doesn't matter.)
#14814160
Oxymandias wrote:@Saeko

Hey, look! A situation in which the word Allah is used well! Wow!

Actually I'm not being sarcastic here. The way you used the word Allah (which means God but you seem to already know that) is top notch! (is that how you English people say it? Top notch? Eh, it doesn't matter.)


Thanks. :D
#14814165
@mikema63

Me and @Saeko weren't connecting, if we were this would be alot more personal. But we are developing a sense of respect towards each other I think. From thinking of each other as plebs to honorable enemies. Me and Saeko do not agree with each other at all in terms of everything outside of by far the most basic human desires but we do respect each other.

ALSO SAEKO DEBATE WITH ME!!!
#14814180
Supporting UBI is interesting. Do they support Keynesianism in general or promote broader changes that would promote the status of those doing socially valuable work (raising children, caring for the elderly or infirm) or culturally valuable work (writing music, poetry, etc.)?
#14814205
Oxymandias wrote:All ideologies are a bunch of ideas.


I apologize, I should have said: A bunch of political opinions without an idea behind them. You seem to confuse the two.

AFAIK wrote:Supporting UBI is interesting.


I voted on that last year, can I call myself a political philosopher now :excited: .
#14814357
@Rugoz

Define "idea" in this context. If you mean overarching purpose, then the purpose of Civiocracy is to encourage innovation and creativity amongst it's citizens by providing the conditions that allow innovation and creativity.

No. Voting for a policy does not make you a political scientist (science is the word to use. You can't be a political philosopher unless you made your own philosophy)

@AFAIK

I think they support Modern Monetary Theory more than Keynesianism but if MMT didn't exist, I think they would've supported it. MMT is basically an expansion of Keynesianism anyways (imo).

Both. The point of supporting UBI is due to wanting to change the idea of what "work" means. This could be due to the fact that many startup founders were college dropouts and because startups are often stigmatized in everywhere else outside of Silicon Valley and North California. Therefore, many of them sympathize with people who do other work that may not pay very well.

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