How do you debate someone with deep convictions? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14824976
QatzelOk wrote:And there's also the great example of Christianity, a model of the tortured and beaten down philosopher who is beautiful because he is repressed and ineffective.

This is slave philosophy. "You must be destroyed and exploited in order to be useful to others."

I'd say that most of the art that comes from torture is more of a sign of a shitty system than of any kind of useful creative understanding of the human condition.

And that the Christian habit of inviting misery on himself, of sacrificing his own happiness for the glory of some kind of text-created empire, is just a way of writing himself out of any kind of real reflection or freedom that comes from peaceful, augmented reflection.

Our system is shitty. That won't change by giving our system's victims posthumous book prizes. Our leader probably want us reading about their tribulations in order to scare us into compliance.


Do you practice building strawman in your superior contemplative paradise?

Would you like to address what I mentioned about artists struggling with depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and suicidal ideation?

It's quite possible that there's great artwork and literature out there that wouldn't exist if the artist was happy and contented in the ideological garden of your choice.
#14824988
I agree with you here anna. The type of art (so creative thinking) depends on your mental situation. One size doesn't fit all. In fact I would say the best solutions for solving problems would be when you are faced with a problem and know what it is. Clear thoughts can still cause more problems than solutions actually and isn't always a foundation for success. For example, May was walking in the Welsh mountains when decide to call a unnecessary general election in the UK this year. This has turned out to be a very bad idea (for her).
#14825003
When confronted with hardship, we turn inward. Both arguments show 'stepping outside our reality ' as an important ingredient. We must view from a distance.
#14825025
QatzelOk wrote:I'm glad you clarified your point so that I can see that I disagree strongly with it.

Most "received ideas" are not useful because they are just a faithful regurgitation of a clever meme or nice feeling we had while in the presence of a charismatic person or text.

The best and most original ideas come from some kind of enriched contemplation, like you might find while hiking in mountains, swimming long distance, or riding a bike for hours and hours.

Very deep convictions can be formed in these natural and augmented situations, and the only way to find your own "deep convictions" to bring to the table is to indulge in these kinds of activities yourself.


I'm not going to completely disagree with you in the sense that I believe that solitude, being in nature, and exercise can all lead to clarity, and clarity can lead to a good idea. However I also think there is merit in being exposed to different points of views from all over the world and from people who do not share your positionality. The problem with looking inward is that you don't give yourself the greatest chance to overcome your biases.
#14825063
B0ycey wrote:Clear thoughts can still cause more problems than solutions actually and isn't always a foundation for success. For example, May was walking in the Welsh mountains when decide to call a unnecessary general election in the UK this year. This has turned out to be a very bad idea (for her).


:lol:

Thank you for that breath of fresh air... both literally and metaphorically.

I didn't know that about May, so looked it up and here are a couple of headlines:

How a walking holiday in Snowdonia led to Theresa May calling a General Election

'The walks give clarity': how Wales hike helped PM decide on next step
Theresa May’s walks around Dolgellau gave her the space to decide to call the general election that took the UK by surprise

:lol:
#14825066
I wonder if she will publicly reveal the tablets she found in the mountains?
She may have been inspired and her actions have set Britain on the right course.
#14825067
One Degree wrote:I wonder if she will publicly reveal the tablets she found in the mountains?
She may have been inspired and her actions have set Britain on the right course.


The only correlation I can see between May and Moses is that both their names start with M. ;)
#14825071
I wonder if she will publicly reveal the tablets she found in the mountains?
She may have been inspired and her actions have set Britain on the right course.

Indeed. The divine pneuma may inspire people to do things which are bad for them personally but good for society as a whole. And indeed, an 'inspiration' which serves only that individual's interests can hardly be called 'divine' at all; rather, it's just a cunning plan hatched in that individual's own brain. Most people think they can use God to get their own way by asking favours of him in their prayers, as though God is Vito Corleone or something. In reality, God uses us to get what he wants. And why shouldn't he?
#14825083
LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX wrote:I'm not going to completely disagree with you in the sense that I believe that solitude, being in nature, and exercise can all lead to clarity, and clarity can lead to a good idea. However I also think there is merit in being exposed to different points of views from all over the world and from people who do not share your positionality. The problem with looking inward is that you don't give yourself the greatest chance to overcome your biases.

Obviously, it's important to be exposed to different points of view from other cultures, genders, and income levels.

But without long periods of peaceful reflection, there is no way of entangling all the different prejudices and situated worldviews that you have been exposed to.

In the Modern World of noise, distraction, and workaholism (all partially caused by Jesus-worshipping), there is less and less opportunity for creativity. Which is part of the reason why most Modern Art is shit.

Modern media. Modern urbanism. Modern philosophy. All are slave-based representations of the beauty of suffering in the name of the empire.
#14825176
mikema63 wrote:I'm always a little at a loss when talking to someone who has deep convictions to some set of values, ideology, or whatever their idea of justice is. They tend to see things in such black and white terms that disagreeing with them automatically puts you on the list of people they will never listen to.

They also have a tendency to believe things that are out of line with reality to maintain their black and white view of things. For instance ignoring bad things done by one side of the conflict as false flag or whatever because they have decided that it's the moral side.

How do you convince someone so deeply convinced of the moral righteousness of their cause that there is gray area?


First, be clear on what you're debating. I find the "moving of the goalposts" to be the most infuriating thing about debating people. For example, any debate about the US involvement in the middle east would start with me asking those who support such a thing "What does winning look like?" I insist on a black-and-white; easily witnessed outcome so you can look at the situation in a few years and see that we've just poured more blood and treasure into that bottomless pit.

Secondly, it always helps to know what would change the mind of the person you're debating. Find that out and simply hammer away at the topic.
#14825207
4cal wrote:...For example, any debate about the US involvement in the middle east would start with me asking those who support such a thing "What does winning look like?" I insist on a black-and-white; easily witnessed outcome so you can look at the situation in a few years and see that we've just poured more blood and treasure into that bottomless pit. ...

A deep conviction might look at the costly wars in the Middle East and see that... they're helping banksters, multinationals and arms dealers stay really rich and totally in control of the Earth.

By bankrupting America, they will be able to buy all the pieces really cheap, and it isn't THEM who has to pay for any of this.

Very generous of deep-conviction-lacking Americans to give up their livelihoods for the sake of their banksters and 1%. I guess one of the advantages of having really shallow convictions (and lots of gray areas) is that it's easy to rip you off.

Abrahamic suffering probably makes being ripped off feel really holy and sacred.

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