Is the "Alt-Left" Hurting the Republicans, or the Democrats? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14841734
So according to Buz this is a picture of the alt left?

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And this?

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And presumably this?

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And of course this famously left wing chap?

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Your definition is fucked mate. All normal people think acts of violence against Nazis are a good thing. If you call them all alt left the term is so broad as to be useless, even including quite a few very right wing people.

Try to define it again and this time at least make it something worth my time to refute?
#14841768
Bulaba Jones wrote:Yes. Apparently, white nationalists, identified as the most violent of all extremists in America by the FBI and the DHS, are actually victims of horrible oppression from groups like Antifa and others who don't murder people.

The reason @Buzz62 and others feel righteous caps-lock fury is the horrible mistreatment of neo-Nazis, the KKK, and other white supremacists in America. People even have the audacity to insult some of them by calling them Nazis! In other cases, people even go so far as to counterprotest and demonstrate against them!

Apparently, we are supposed to feel sympathy for Nazis getting punched in the face despite their aim of enacting violence against people for being black, Jewish, and so on. Or so the blubbering Nazi apologist crybabies want us to believe.


Yes, Nazis are violent people. But how many of them exist? I think reactionary ideas in general, among the working classes, are a much bigger problem - they are simply growing way too popular among certain segments of the population. But to suggest that blatant, open white nationalism constitutes some kind of a mass movement is ridiculous. It's the press that ultimately gives a platform to these groups.

Take what went down in Charlottlesville, for example. I didn't see goosestepping SS members...what I saw were a lot of deluded young boys. Brainwashed by reactionaries and comprising an element of the working class impervious to consciousness of class - they need education, and help. But a lot of the people on television condemning those brainwashed boys, if you look at their bank accounts and positions of privilege, are much better examples of white supremacy. Yet no one on the so-called "left" cares much to challenge this hypocrisy.

This is a failure on the part of the so-called left. The American left-wing has completely failed working class people. By all means, we should fight fascism. But let's not pretend like capitalism itself isn't the source of the problem. The liberal left are coming at these things from a neo-capitalist perspective when there can be no reformation. These problems are the natural side effects of capitalism. And until capitalism is abolished, you will continue to have reactionaries and political violence. That's what we should be talking about here.
#14841788
Bulaba Jones wrote:Yes. Apparently, white nationalists, identified as the most violent of all extremists in America by the FBI and the DHS, are actually victims of horrible oppression from groups like Antifa and others who don't murder people.

The reason @Buzz62 and others feel righteous caps-lock fury is the horrible mistreatment of neo-Nazis, the KKK, and other white supremacists in America. People even have the audacity to insult some of them by calling them Nazis! In other cases, people even go so far as to counterprotest and demonstrate against them!

Apparently, we are supposed to feel sympathy for Nazis getting punched in the face despite their aim of enacting violence against people for being black, Jewish, and so on. Or so the blubbering Nazi apologist crybabies want us to believe.

Yes I am.
And that goes for anyone. If a person is assaulted, he may fight back. Any person.

Now...I'm just about at the end of my rope with you "Bulb-person", and your constant twisting of peoples' words. You have to be the most dishonest poster in here.

First of all, I have been defending these peoples' right to peaceful protest and free speech. NOT their ideals. But you want to take that constitutional right away from them. That makes these racist jerks...racist jerks. However if you actually have the balls to attempt to deny American Citizens the right to free speech, that makes YOU a FASCIST.
Second, "their aim of enacting violence against people for being black, Jewish, and so on"? Did they do that? Or were they attacked and defended themselves...
Ya "Bulb-person", you wanna pick fights, expect to get punched back. That's how real men act. But you like to hide yourself in the obscurity of the web, and make all sorts of grandiose pink-noise about how tough you are. :roll:

You have every right to counter protest.
YOU DO NOT have the right to break civil law by MOVING your little protest in order to pick fights with your opposition.

So have yourself a good cry, and then suck it up "Bulb-person". Either that, or find a nation you can go live in where your FASCIST ideals are in practice.

Have a nice day...

OH and Decky?...those are WWII pics. This is 2017.
Please join us in THIS CENTURY... :knife:
#14841813
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Buzz62

You never answered my question.

Is racist violence just as moral (or immoral) as violence used to defend ourselves against racism? Yes or no?


Yes, morality is subjective. There is no basis for comparison.
#14841815
One Degree wrote:Yes, morality is subjective. There is no basis for comparison.


The fact that there is no objective basis for comparison does not mean that there is no basis for comparison at all.

But thank you for that incredibly vague statement that lends nothing to the debate. By that token, taking away the free speech of Nazis is just as good as letting them talk.
#14841820
Pants-of-dog wrote:The fact that there is no objective basis for comparison does not mean that there is no basis for comparison at all.

But thank you for that incredibly vague statement that lends nothing to the debate. By that token, taking away the free speech of Nazis is just as good as letting them talk.


Yep, it is all up to the community to decide. The US community is just too large for it to be reasonable.
#14841838
Pants-of-dog wrote:No one cares about your stupid community decision crap that you keep bringing up in every thread even if it is irrelevant.

It is as useless as your comment justifying racist violence.

NO!
And this is where your whole argument flakes to ashes.
IT IS NOT CRAP, to stand by the agreed upon "operating procedures" of a society, or a community.
NOT in a DEMOCRATIC society! This still IS one...isn't it?

And may I add, that I strongly suspect DEMOCRACY and the very community decisions that exist here, are the very reason your parents brought you here from Poland.
Last edited by Buzz62 on 08 Sep 2017 15:54, edited 1 time in total.
#14841842
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Buzz62

Is racist violence just as moral or immoral as the violence used to fight racism?

Answer the question.

NEITHER!
There is no "morality" in violence.
Hence we tend to shy away from it, whenever possible.
But, if I get a permit to stand on a corner, and bark out racist shit, and you walk up and punch me in the mouth, I'm liable to put you in the hospital. THE LAW of our DEMOCRACY will rightly charge you with assault, and me with either the same or a lesser charge, since you threw the first punch.

This is DEMOCRACY and its tenets, that WE ALL have agreed to, in fucking practice.
#14841845
One Degree wrote:Yep, it is all up to the community to decide. The US community is just too large for it to be reasonable.


Unless that community decides to take down a statue erected to intimidate blacks, apparently. Then it is a national issue where we must support the Klan and Nazis coming to intimidate the community into the compliance of outsiders :lol:
#14841849
The Immortal Goon wrote:Unless that community decides to take down a statue erected to intimidate blacks, apparently. Then it is a national issue where we must support the Klan and Nazis coming to intimidate the community into the compliance of outsiders :lol:


Misstating my position is not an argument. :( I clearly supported the community right to do what they wanted. I only questioned whether it was the community or typical lobbyists politics making the decision.
#14841850
Buzz62 wrote:NEITHER!
There is no "morality" in violence.
Hence we tend to shy away from it, whenever possible.


So if I violently attacked your wife, it would be just as moral as your use of violence when defending her. According to you.

But, if I get a permit to stand on a corner, and bark out racist shit, and you walk up and punch me in the mouth, I'm liable to put you in the hospital. THE LAW of our DEMOCRACY will rightly charge you with assault, and me with either the same or a lesser charge, since you threw the first punch.

This is DEMOCRACY and its tenets, that WE ALL have agreed to, in fucking practice.


Also, equality is a basic tenet of liberal democracy. Is violence supporting equality more democratic than violence oppposing equality, if we are using the basic tenets of democracy as a guideline?
#14841851
The Immortal Goon wrote:Unless that community decides to take down a statue erected to intimidate blacks, apparently. Then it is a national issue where we must support the Klan and Nazis coming to intimidate the community into the compliance of outsiders :lol:

Gawd the mental disconnect here is staggering.
Are you really so challenged, that you can't grasp anything past "Nazi Bad"?
#14841857
Buzz62 wrote:Gawd the mental disconnect here is staggering.
Are you really so challenged, that you can't grasp anything past "Nazi Bad"?


Based upon the premise that One Degree proposed, his position makes no sense.

However, I do not accept his premise.

If you have more trouble with basic reading comprehension, I'm sure someone on the forum will be happy to explain things :D

One Degree wrote:Misstating my position is not an argument. :( I clearly supported the community right to do what they wanted. I only questioned whether it was the community or typical lobbyists politics making the decision.


Why is this up to you and various national movements and not the community?
#14841859
Pants-of-dog wrote:So if I violently attacked your wife, it would be just as moral as your use of violence when defending her. According to you.

There is no MORALITY in VIOLENCE.!
If you'd ever had to hurt someone, you KNOW THAT!
There is nothing noble or good, about beating the shit outta someone.
Just ask any soldier who's had to kill. No matter how superior they may believe their side or cause to be, the act leaves a sour taste in their mouths. We use it as a last resort, to defend ourselves and our families, but nothing in the act of violence is "moral".

Pants-of-dog wrote:Also, equality is a basic tenet of liberal democracy. Is violence supporting equality more democratic than violence oppposing equality, if we are using the basic tenets of democracy as a guideline?

More democratic...
POD...equality IS a basic tenet of our democracy. That's why, no matter how much a hill-billie might howl and scream for...lets say a return of slavery, HE CANNOT TAKE SUCH ACTIONS! He can say it...but he cannot do it.
#14841865
Why is this up to you and various national movements and not the community?


@The Immortal Goon Again, I never said it was. Why do you insist upon pursuing an argument based upon a false premise. I am not the one that supports a huge centralized government making these decisions. I think they should have the right to decide, but the federal government does not. I must base my arguments within these restrictions. They say it is a national issue, so I am forced to argue it as one, even though it does not reflect my true views.
#14841866
Violence is never good, but it's sometimes the lesser evil. The problem I have is in comparing the fascist war machine of the mid-20th century with 200 boys marching around screaming obscenities.

With that said, I do in fact oppose their "right" to assemble. They terrorize social minorities and create division among the workers. And appealing to the constitution doesn't mean squat to me - the constitution, in my opinion, amounts to little more than an asswipe written by white supremacist oligarchs for the benefit of themselves.

As for doing away with statues pertaining to the confederacy, I would support tearing down the union statues as well. Why? Because the north weren't good guys, either. They didn't give a hairy rat's ass about the slaves. They were pissed off, warmongering totalitarians butthurt over the imminent loss of federal authoritah. The lesser evil to be sure, but not the type of people worthy of reverence.

Why would white nationalists worship the confederacy? I have no clue why people who claim to love white people would pay homage to the social apparatus that led hundreds of thousands of white people like sheep to the slaughter. If nothing else, that war was a good illustration of how the rich manages to convince the poor to fight and die for a horrible cause of no benefit to themselves: they make it personal. Appeal to race, ethnicity, culture, family, people, religion, destiny, etc. Intoxicate them with useless abstractions, give them a weapon, and tell them who to kill...meanwhile, they sit back on their plantation wining and dining while the poor cut each other down. F*ck that noise.

Anyone who claims to be "pro-white" should absolutely despise that flag and culture. But then again, these people aren't exactly known for making sense.
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