[Buzz62]

Oh I'm sorry for recognizing good old fashioned racialism and being disgusted by it. Your bullshit has been debunked a thousand times over but you cling to utter nonsense that flies in the face of everything we know about human biology.

"RACISM"
Your "disgust" actually pleases me. It reminds me of just how far gone you are.
I don't remember anyone "debunking" anything Mikie. But why would that stop you from making outlandish claims...
Oh BTW...little secret...when I'm wrong, I admit it. That's how a MAN acts Mikie.
You should try it. Its gotta be better than sitting there crying into your "cup-o"

But I guess you can just whine about how mean I am for pointing that out, insult me, and call me alt-left whatever that's supposed to mean applied to me one of the most centrist posters on the sites.

No no...please...do continue to be "mean" and anti-american. I like it. It helps my latest cause.
Really...go at it Mikie.

Oh BTW...again...a "Centerist" would support the First Amendment. You do not.
Thus...you are not a "Centerist".

Que more screaming...

[mikema63]

You've done a rare thing today buzz, you made me laugh out loud in public.

[Buzz62]

I have many "talents" Mikie.
Identifying reality. Staying true to the law. Patriotism. Community Volunteering. Making money.
And, as you've noted, a unique way of making unpleasant fools...laugh.

[mikema63]

You are a piece of work.

[Buzz62]

@Oxymoron Agreed.

It is intelligent in so far as it is self-serving. In capitalism, it is intelligent to make as much money as possible. Some do this by robbing others to the point that the victims are starving.

None od this changes the fact that you are perpetuating racism.

That's not INTELLIGENT.
Its an exhibition of the most BASIC and CHILDISH of actions.
And I'm actually pretty darn sure you know that.
But hey...when you have no reasonable arguments..."racism" is a nice fall-back.

Look how far you've fallen POD. Really...this is sick.

[Pants-of-dog]

That's not INTELLIGENT.
Its an exhibition of the most BASIC and CHILDISH of actions.
And I'm actually pretty darn sure you know that.

Your opinion and feelings about capitalist corruption are irrelevant. It is self-serving (and therefore both intelligent and selfish) to enrich yourself at the expense of those who serve you.

But hey...when you have no reasonable arguments..."racism" is a nice fall-back.

Look how far you've fallen POD. Really...this is sick.

Your opinion of me is also irrelevant.

I find that many conservatives whine about being accused of racism whenever they run out of arguments.

[Hindsite]

The only thing knee jerk in this thread is the virulent commitment to racialist ideologies. You seriously will defend anything wont you? You're a veritable cornucopia of terrible beliefs.

We are part of Hillary's Basket of Deplorables.

But who are the real basket of Deplorables?
Anyone here want to join me?

[Buzz62]

Your opinion and feelings about capitalist corruption are irrelevant. It is self-serving (and therefore both intelligent and selfish) to enrich yourself at the expense of those who serve you.

OK...you're understanding of "Capitalism" is just plain silly.
What you are describing, is FASCISM.
Which happens to be the main thing AntiFA claims to oppose.
So this is the "sickness" eh? To go so far off the deep end, that you become incoherent and irrational.
How does that serve your "cause" POD? How does arguing out of both sides of your mouth, gonna benefit anybody?

Your opinion of me is also irrelevant.

I find that many conservatives whine about being accused of racism whenever they run out of arguments.

If my "opinion" of you, is so "irrelevant", why do we keep doing this "dog and pony show" in here? Huh?
NOBODY...except a self-proclaimed real racist maybe...likes being accused of such. Its sort of a social reflex everyone has learned...by people like you in fact.

@Hindsite We're all "deplorable" in our own little ways. That's being "human". Some are more "human" than others...granted. But just the same...Its "wisdom" that gives some people "introspection".

[Pants-of-dog]

OK...you're understanding of "Capitalism" is just plain silly.
What you are describing, is FASCISM.

No. Fascism is not simply "bad people on the right".

Nor is global economic inequality caused by fascism. It is, instead, caused by historical colonualism and imperialism, and is perpetuated by modern capitalism.

So when an African dictator starves his own people in order to enrich himself, it has more to do with capitalism than fascism.

Which happens to be the main thing AntiFA claims to oppose.
So this is the "sickness" eh? To go so far off the deep end, that you become incoherent and irrational.
How does that serve your "cause" POD? How does arguing out of both sides of your mouth, gonna benefit anybody?

Oh, I see where you got it wrong.

You think I support this just because I am describing it intelligently.

No, I do not support the international system of capitalism that empowers tin pot dictators.

If my "opinion" of you, is so "irrelevant", why do we keep doing this "dog and pony show" in here? Huh?

Because you get a lot of things wrong, and this is a debate forum. You write "target rich" posts.

NOBODY...except a self-proclaimed real racist maybe...likes being accused of such. Its sort of a social reflex everyone has learned...by people like you in fact.

I never accused you of being racist.

I pointed out that you made a comment that perpetuates racism.

And if your feelings are to reflexively get offended and derail the topic to talk about your feelings, you are introducing irrelevancies.

[Buzz62]

No. Fascism is not simply "bad people on the right".

Nor is global economic inequality caused by fascism. It is, instead, caused by historical colonualism and imperialism, and is perpetuated by modern capitalism.

So when an African dictator starves his own people in order to enrich himself, it has more to do with capitalism than fascism.

Fascism is a political ideology. People with a dictatorial bent, tend to favor this ideology. Bad people are not fascism.

Global economic inequality is caused by fascism, and capitalism and communism and all of the "isms"
GREED warps the people practicing these ideologies. THAT'S what causes economic inequality.

See this graph.

See where Capitalism lives and where Fascism lives? Stop trying to warp reality please.

Oh, I see where you got it wrong.

You think I support this just because I am describing it intelligently.

No, I do not support the international system of capitalism that empowers tin pot dictators.

No...I think you're wrong...because you are wrong. See above.

Because you get a lot of things wrong, and this is a debate forum. You write "target rich" posts.

We exist in 2 different realities evidently. In my world, reality is fairly static. Things are as they are.
It appears to me that in your world, reality is how you want things to be. You can't will humans to love each other POD. Racism may not be the most savory of our instincts, but it is an instinct.

I never accused you of being racist.

I pointed out that you made a comment that perpetuates racism.

Perpetuates? Or accepts...
Now I'm-a-gonna do something I KNOW you will enjoy...

You and I are brought to a mountain by...some sort of gawd.
The gawd says that USING the tool he's providing us, a small rock pick, we are to get to the other side of the mountain, to attain an object that will give us the ultimate goal...eternal life in his house.
You pick up your little rock pick, and begin going at the mountain trying to dig through it to the object.
I pick up my rock pick, begin walking around the mountain, periodically smacking the mountain with my pick so as to satisfy the rule to USE the tool, get to the other side, pick up the object, and gain my goal. You suffer a cave-in, and are buried under the weight of the mountain.

[Pants-of-dog]

Fascism is a political ideology. People with a dictatorial bent, tend to favor this ideology. Bad people are not fascism.

Global economic inequality is caused by fascism, and capitalism and communism and all of the "isms"
GREED warps the people practicing these ideologies. THAT'S what causes economic inequality.

See this graph.

See where Capitalism lives and where Fascism lives? Stop trying to warp reality please.

I see.

You are unable to see a difference between international systems of finance and governments within a country.

You also incorrectly believe that all right wing authoritarian governments are fascism.

No...I think you're wrong...because you are wrong. See above.

As long as we are clear that anti-fascists do not support the international systems that create starving Africans.

We exist in 2 different realities evidently. In my world, reality is fairly static. Things are as they are.
It appears to me that in your world, reality is how you want things to be. You can't will humans to love each other POD. Racism may not be the most savory of our instincts, but it is an instinct.

I never claimed it was not partly instinctive.

But I am not going to ignore your racist comments just because racism comes from a place that has nothing to do with intellect.

Perpetuates? Or accepts....

Both, but I do not care about the latter.

[Buzz62]

enjoy the cave-in...

[Pants-of-dog]

Actually, I am enjoying your implicit admission of defeat.

[Buzz62]

I'm not gonna pick through a mountain with you POD.
That would be ahhhh...stupid.

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm not gonna pick through a mountain with you POD.
That would be ahhhh...stupid.

Nor will you apparently support your claims with logic or evidence.

Which is fine, as that means that my claims stand unchallenged.

[foxdemon]

Claiming racism to be instinctive is simplistic. It combines various basic elements of human nature: dominance behaviour, xenophobia, tribalism. But it is itself a complex notion, thus cultural rather than instinctive.

But it is hardly the case that the instinctive elements such as xenophobia, are a complete description of human nature. Consider chimps compared to humans. When chimps meet other chimps from a different tribe, they will attack. However, when humans, let's use ice age humans in Europe for an example, meet strangers, typically the first response is to see what they have got to trade. This is why bone combs and similar travelled 1000's of miles across ice age Europe. There are plenty of other examples: aboriginal Australians trading shell and flint over huge distances, Europeans started with trading before enslaving Africans, S Americans, Asians etc.

So it can't be said that racism, or indeed xenophobia is most characteristic of human behaviour. A much better argument could be built to say trade is more characteristic of humans.

Anyway, neither racism nor capitalism are central to the problems of over population, environment stress and hyper competition. The best word is 'Moloch'. I refer readers to @Oxymandias thread on the subject.

https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=170905

[Politiks]

[youtube]FPicR5Kz6uQ[/youtube]

Noam has his say on immigration and takes a critical position on 'rich countries'. Is it the case that these 'rich countries' are responsible for immigration from the 'global south'? He describes the immigration crisis in terms of a'moral crisis of the West'. Is Noam correct?

He mentions nothing about high rates of population growth and low rates of economic growth in the 'global south'. Nor does anyone at the UN Universtity at which his speech was presented. He also misrepresents Japan. Noah's understanding of the Far East actually isn't that good. East Asia has managed to keep population growth at least close to economic growth. Those countries that have done best in Asia are the ones which economic growth outpaced population growth. Note: they started from the same position as Africa and the ME and faced the same imperialism but still managed to thrive.

He does present a weak arguement that Africa was poised to develop as Japan did, but as I pointed out, many East Asian countries were in the same situation but are much better off today. Could it be that Africa is poorly managed by its ruling class? Could this be so for the ME too? And could a UN institution afford to criticise those power Elites? Rich countries are an easier target, no?

https://gcm.unu.edu/publications/articles/crises-of-immigration.html

I think Noam is well intended to a certain extent but he says a lot of lies or delusions, depending on how you analyze what he has to say. Isn't just Africa or Asia he talks a lot of BS, about South America and Europe too. It's obvious to see the guy has a agenda, he's controlled opposition for years, neocons controlled opposition that is.

The British Empire, France and USA have a lot of blood in their hands, so does Africans and the Middle Eastern leaders. The idea that USA didn't try, and still does, to control the world is missguided. They got so good at it they now want to control Britain too, France and every other country who's considered "rich". The poor world wasn't enough for USA, they became more eager to conquer it all.

That said, South America was also a area of colonies, subjected to more subtle attacks than any other region in the world. The idea you can bring a nation to it's knees without the help of leaders of such nation, upper class, and the people is proven wrong by the South Cone of South America. The longest war played by NATO and USA was done against Brazil and Argentina, for decades, 50 years of subtle war, disguised as "friendship".

Yet, you don't see Argentinians killing one another. When the Condor plan was implanted in South America the reverse of what happened in Africa and the Middle East happened here. The "friendship" between Argentina and Brazil became stronger, instead of a conflict or war, the 2 countries became even closer. When the Condor happened in my country we united all political parties, we forgot about our differences and we thought against the regime that wanted to destroy our nation (I'm Uruguayan).

My point is simple: tribalism, Islam, lack or civil rights for women, all those causes are way more influential than USA, France or UK can ever be. If Brazil's elite left the country Brazil would become Africa or Mexico in a year. That never happened, in between dictators of their own choice, dictator thots imposed by condor, subtle wars disguised as sanctions, in between all USA was never able to fully dominate the country, army or navy, and more so the population.

South America is the example that culture plays a huge part in becoming Africa or Europe. How you behave when darkness arrives will be decisive for future generations.

Africans are far from being civilized as we understand civilization. Seen Venezuelans fighting for 5 years to depose their Government by the Constitution without planting bombs on public buildings or trying to murder the ruling Chavistas shows you that even during a Communist regime that massacred the people, the economy, when a culture flows towards democracy, is absent of tribalism and war monger ways, you will have a Democratic war not a full blood massacre.

You need 2 to tango.

[Buzz62]

Claiming racism to be instinctive is simplistic. It combines various basic elements of human nature: dominance behaviour, xenophobia, tribalism. But it is itself a complex notion, thus cultural rather than instinctive.

But it is hardly the case that the instinctive elements such as xenophobia, are a complete description of human nature. Consider chimps compared to humans. When chimps meet other chimps from a different tribe, they will attack. However, when humans, let's use ice age humans in Europe for an example, meet strangers, typically the first response is to see what they have got to trade. This is why bone combs and similar travelled 1000's of miles across ice age Europe. There are plenty of other examples: aboriginal Australians trading shell and flint over huge distances, Europeans started with trading before enslaving Africans, S Americans, Asians etc.

So it can't be said that racism, or indeed xenophobia is most characteristic of human behaviour. A much better argument could be built to say trade is more characteristic of humans.

Anyway, neither racism nor capitalism are central to the problems of over population, environment stress and hyper competition. The best word is 'Moloch'. I refer readers to @Oxymandias thread on the subject.

https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=170905

Moloch?
OMG...next!

[Sivad]

When chimps meet other chimps from a different tribe, they will attack. However, when humans, let's use ice age humans in Europe for an example, meet strangers, typically the first response is to see what they have got to trade.

That's a little too tidy, human nature is much more complex. Aggression, greed, and fear feature just as prominently as cooperativeness and sociability. How any initial contact between groups plays out is determined by a range of factors - cultural, geographical, environmental, as well as relative strengths and weaknesses between groups. Cultural and technological diffusion is as much a result of conquest and subjugation as it is of peaceable commerce.

Plus very few trade relations are completely equitable, even the most peaceful are predicated on power differentials and rest to some extent on dominance/submission. Power and force are endemic to human relations so there's always an element of coercion in virtually all commerce.

[foxdemon]

I think Noam is well intended to a certain extent but he says a lot of lies or delusions, depending on how you analyze what he has to say. Isn't just Africa or Asia he talks a lot of BS, about South America and Europe too. It's obvious to see the guy has a agenda, he's controlled opposition for years, neocons controlled opposition that is.

The British Empire, France and USA have a lot of blood in their hands, so does Africans and the Middle Eastern leaders. The idea that USA didn't try, and still does, to control the world is missguided. They got so good at it they now want to control Britain too, France and every other country who's considered "rich". The poor world wasn't enough for USA, they became more eager to conquer it all.

The Western establishment does indeed try to rule the world. It is an assumption they don't question and it seems something they aren't consciously aware off. Yet the wealth, and with it the power, is shifting to Asia. I think the US and the leading Europeans nations are in for a shock when they discover they aren't as powerful as they once were. How will they react?

That said, South America was also a area of colonies, subjected to more subtle attacks than any other region in the world. The idea you can bring a nation to it's knees without the help of leaders of such nation, upper class, and the people is proven wrong by the South Cone of South America. The longest war played by NATO and USA was done against Brazil and Argentina, for decades, 50 years of subtle war, disguised as "friendship".

Yet, you don't see Argentinians killing one another. When the Condor plan was implanted in South America the reverse of what happened in Africa and the Middle East happened here. The "friendship" between Argentina and Brazil became stronger, instead of a conflict or war, the 2 countries became even closer. When the Condor happened in my country we united all political parties, we forgot about our differences and we thought against the regime that wanted to destroy our nation (I'm Uruguayan).

Latin America, by and large, has done a good job of avoiding conflict. The Brazilian elite seems to have been able to play a facilitory role with an eye to maintaining stability.

My point is simple: tribalism, Islam, lack or civil rights for women, all those causes are way more influential than USA, France or UK can ever be. If Brazil's elite left the country Brazil would become Africa or Mexico in a year. That never happened, in between dictators of their own choice, dictator thots imposed by condor, subtle wars disguised as sanctions, in between all USA was never able to fully dominate the country, army or navy, and more so the population.

South America is the example that culture plays a huge part in becoming Africa or Europe. How you behave when darkness arrives will be decisive for future generations.

Africans are far from being civilized as we understand civilization. Seen Venezuelans fighting for 5 years to depose their Government by the Constitution without planting bombs on public buildings or trying to murder the ruling Chavistas shows you that even during a Communist regime that massacred the people, the economy, when a culture flows towards democracy, is absent of tribalism and war monger ways, you will have a Democratic war not a full blood massacre.

You need 2 to tango.

I agree. The problems in the ME and Africa are cultural. Typical strict Islam results in throwing out innovation, including administrative innovations, and it involves oppression of women, hence a high population growth rate. Put together it results in too many people without sufficient organisation to sustain prosperity.

Africa loves small farms and lacks a tradition of accountable governance. Again women are oppressed and a high population growth rate combined with a lack of organisation to create a viable basis to sustain prosperity.

Both refuse to change whereas the Far East and Western cultures are constantly changing. The result is the ME and Africa get left behind yet produce population growth they can't support. Is it fair to expect other cultures to accomodate this irresponsibility? Europe can't keep accepting illegal immigrants if those regions they come from don't address they over population/under organisation issues.


Again 'Moloch' describes this well. It takes setting limits to behaviour in order to be fair on others if cooperation is to be achieved. If some regions cheat, then the world can't cooperate to solve global problems.

It isn't just Africa and the ME who are cheating. The US and Europe like to set trade rules that suit them, particularly in agriculture. Also it is difficult to get the US and the large Asian countries to work together on climate change. So we see every nation or region ultimately doing what is in their immediate interests because the means to cooperate doesn't exist.

Moloch?
OMG...next!

You didn't understand the article, did you?

That's a little too tidy, human nature is much more complex. Aggression, greed, and fear feature just as prominently as cooperativeness and sociability. How any initial contact between groups plays out is determined by a range of factors - cultural, geographical, environmental, as well as relative strengths and weaknesses between groups. Cultural and technological diffusion is as much a result of conquest and subjugation as it is of peaceable commerce.

Plus very few trade relations are completely equitable, even the most peaceful are predicated on power differentials and rest to some extent on dominance/submission. Power and force are endemic to human relations so there's always an element of coercion in virtually all commerce.

It is indeed too tidy but I only needed to make the point that humans do cooperate habitually. Trading rather than immediately attacking strangers being a fine example. I could bring up sympathy, loyalty, shame etc, in addition to self interest, as movitavors for cooperation. But it is enough to demonstrate we are hyper social compared to chimps and this is emergent from human instinct.