Noam Chomsky on the Crisis of Immigration - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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[youtube]FPicR5Kz6uQ[/youtube]

Noam has his say on immigration and takes a critical position on 'rich countries'. Is it the case that these 'rich countries' are responsible for immigration from the 'global south'? He describes the immigration crisis in terms of a'moral crisis of the West'. Is Noam correct?

He mentions nothing about high rates of population growth and low rates of economic growth in the 'global south'. Nor does anyone at the UN Universtity at which his speech was presented. He also misrepresents Japan. Noah's understanding of the Far East actually isn't that good. East Asia has managed to keep population growth at least close to economic growth. Those countries that have done best in Asia are the ones which economic growth outpaced population growth. Note: they started from the same position as Africa and the ME and faced the same imperialism but still managed to thrive.

He does present a weak arguement that Africa was poised to develop as Japan did, but as I pointed out, many East Asian countries were in the same situation but are much better off today. Could it be that Africa is poorly managed by its ruling class? Could this be so for the ME too? And could a UN institution afford to criticise those power Elites? Rich countries are an easier target, no?

https://gcm.unu.edu/publications/articles/crises-of-immigration.html
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foxdemon wrote:[youtube]FPicR5Kz6uQ[/youtube]

Noam has his say on immigration and takes a critical position on 'rich countries'. Is it the case that these 'rich countries' are responsible for immigration from the 'global south'? He describes the immigration crisis in terms of a'moral crisis of the West'. Is Noam correct?

No. The only fault I find with the "rich countries" is that that they do little to prevent immigration. I do not see that it is the responsibility of the rich countries to take care of all the people in poor countries.
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I don't believe that Asia is that comparable to Africa in that it was China's resistance to colonialism that I believe sent a message to the European powers to better organize their shit for the Scramble for Africa.
Asia didn't get off lightly, but they certainly seem to have had more success in resisting colonialism in their own countries. And thus put them in better stead in negotiating for their own national interests.
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Imperial Ambitions: Conversations with Noam Chomsky on the Post 9/11 World

Among Noam Chomsky's bestselling books, this is one of the best. I think he's basically an antiwar activist focusing on Vietnam and other American interventions worldwide and he's not really familiar with economic development. From a Marxist point of view, Japan was an imperial power which subjugated Korea and Taiwan, which made it easier to develop economically in parallel with the British Empire. Africa is totally a different case as these African countries are former European colonies and the economic system of Africa is not on a par with that of East Asia built on the Japanese model. Under Japanese colonial rule, Korean and Taiwanese economies grew exponentially and modern factories and railways were built in these former Japanese colonies under the tutelage of Japanese imperialists, while Europeans were only interested in exploiting African resources, leaving nothing behind when they left in the 1950s.
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Suntzu wrote:I thought he was dead. Africa hasn't developed because the average I.Q. is 70. :lol:



In theory black Africans should produce the smartest people. The group who has the greatest range of genetic diversity is sub Saharan Africans. Therefore they should have the most gifted people in terms of intellect from birth. They can't get away with pretending they are dumber than everyone else.


ThirdTerm wrote:Image

Imperial Ambitions: Conversations with Noam Chomsky on the Post 9/11 World

Among Noam Chomsky's bestselling books, this is one of the best. I think he's basically an antiwar activist focusing on Vietnam and other American interventions worldwide and he's not really familiar with economic development. From a Marxist point of view, Japan was an imperial power which subjugated Korea and Taiwan, which made it easier to develop economically in parallel with the British Empire. Africa is totally a different case as these African countries are former European colonies and the economic system of Africa is not on a par with that of East Asia built on the Japanese model. Under Japanese colonial rule, Korean and Taiwanese economies grew exponentially and modern factories and railways were built in these former Japanese colonies under the tutelage of Japanese imperialists, while Europeans were only interested in exploiting African resources, leaving nothing behind when they left in the 1950s.



Well, North East Asians and Central Europeans aren't that different in values. They value education, discipline and the group ethos. It shouldn't be surprising that those nations are so competitively successful. The peoples of most other cultures can't hold a candle to them. I find it disgusting that some people might take advantage of any good will these nations should show. I hope Japan and Korea learn from Germany's mistakes and refuse to show such unfounded concern for the humanitarian wealthfare of people from more irresponsible cultures.
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Suntzu wrote:I thought he was dead. Africa hasn't developed because the average I.Q. is 70. :lol:


It's in no ones interest to develop Africa. It's far easier to do business with dictators and war lords than it is to do business with a democratic government and an educated populace.
Last edited by Rancid on 18 Sep 2017 03:35, edited 1 time in total.
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For what it's worth there are positive signs of economic development in Africa. It's average growth is about 5% with countries like Ethiopia growing at 10% GDP.

Some consider it one of the great successes of Western foreign aid, development aid, and international institutions. Economic development in Africa was considered a priority of our foreign policy under the Obama administration.

Many would probably argue that it's other factors that have helped Africa, China has also targeted Africa for development.

For what it's worth to point out pew polling shows that Africa is a majorly pro us region that views the us, foreign aid, and American "soft power" as overwhelmingly positive. Which doesn't say we actually helped but at least suggests that Africans think we have.
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foxdemon wrote:Noam has his say on immigration and takes a critical position on 'rich countries'. Is it the case that these 'rich countries' are responsible for immigration from the 'global south'? He describes the immigration crisis in terms of a'moral crisis of the West'. Is Noam correct?


No, he is just another leftist pro-Israel shill who would never promote non-Jewish migration to the rich Israel.
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Rancid wrote:It's in no one's interested to develop Africa. It's far easier to do business with dictators and war lords than it is to do business with a democratic government and an educated populace.


The new colonialism is the "vilest scramble for loot that ever disfigured the history of human conscience" but of course the liberal technocrats deny it. They claim they're in the business of spreading democracy, promoting human rights, and creating prosperity in the third world. They churn out a lot of junk "scholarship" to prop up that lie for those who need and want to believe it, but you got to really want to believe it because the ongoing global atrocity is quite massive.
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Sivad wrote:The new colonialism is the "vilest scramble for loot that ever disfigured the history of human conscience" but of course the liberal technocrats deny it. They claim they're in the business of spreading democracy, promoting human rights, and creating prosperity in the third world. They churn out a lot of junk "scholarship" to prop up that lie for those who need and want to believe it, but you got to really want to believe it because the ongoing global atrocity is quite massive.


It is also based on ignorance. The liberals who think that democratising a country through carpet bombing are completely unaware of the perfidious intrigue that the so called morally superior West has participated in within very recent living memory. We should ask the people of Indonesia and East Timor how much Western democracy means to them when it was Western democracies that colluded with the Indonesian military during the very violent 1965 coup and the invasion of East Timor in 1975. Their obsession with turning the Middle East into Sweden actually results in people getting killed.
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They churn out a lot of junk "scholarship"


I wish I had the confidence in my own genius to ignore the scholarship as propaganda because it conflicts with my world view. It must be very convenient to never have to face a difficult issue or have to reconsider your own thinking on any topic even the slightest bit.

Um, point of order... I didn't realize W was a liberal.


In a general ideological sense both Bushes were quite liberal.
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Zagadka wrote:Um, point of order... I didn't realize W was a liberal.


Economic liberalism aka the Washington consensus(structural adjustment and capital account liberalization), it applies to all establishment politicians pretty much.
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mikema63 wrote:
I wish I had the confidence in my own genius to ignore the scholarship as propaganda because it conflicts with my world view.


At this point it's painfully obvious that our political and regulatory systems along with our media have been captured by corporate money, so it's not much of a stretch to think academia has been severely compromised as well. It's well known that corporations provide massive endowments to major research universities, they fund entire departments, sponsor chairs, they have university presidents sitting on their corporate boards, and that's not even touching on corporate funded think tanks and NGOs. Denying the problem is just silly. There's are also a lot of public intellectuals on the left and the right that have commented on the treason of the clerks, so it's not just my opinion or some conspiracy theory.
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At this point it's painfully obvious


People have honest disagreements with your worldview, in fact a lot of people do. It is not so painfully obvious as all that except to you.

our political and regulatory systems along with our media have been captured by corporate money, so it's not much of a stretch to think academia has been severely compromised as well. It's well known that corporations provide massive endowments to major research universities, they fund entire departments, sponsor chairs, they have university presidents sitting on their corporate boards, and that's not even touching on corporate funded think tanks and NGOs. Denying the problem is just silly. There's are also a lot of public intellectuals on the left and the right that have commented on the treason of the clerks, so it's not just my opinion or some conspiracy theory.


I have heard this before. Creationists claim that academia rejects their views because of people like soros or athiest influences. They hold up academics like michael behe who claim as much.

I have heard this from global warming deniers. They claim that various influences have paid off the majority of scientists and hold up fringe academics who claim it.

You are proposing that corporate interests have bought out, not just influence on the margins but basically control the majority of our political, regulatory, media, and academic institutions. You claim some public intellectuals on the left have commented as much.

Except this isn't how you discuss facts in a peer review process. You look at how they came to the conclusions, you look at your evidence, and you use counter evidence and failings in their methodology to debate their conclusion. You don't assert a conspiracy that controls the majority of our institutions. That is a conspiracy theory.

Like all good conspiracies it has a grain of truth. Corporations certainly seek to influence these things. That is not then grounds to dismiss evidence outright as false, lies, or propaganda. Nor is it evidence that they control every study, poll, news item, or statistic that doesn't adhere to your current understanding of how the world works.

You have to at least acknowledge how someone like me, reading you simply reject any evidence or scholarship that isn't in line with your views as corporate propaganda, would think this a really dangerous way to think about the world or judge information or evidence. It looks like confirmation bias no matter which angle I look at it.
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foxdemon wrote:In theory black Africans should produce the smartest people. The group who has the greatest range of genetic diversity is sub Saharan Africans. Therefore they should have the most gifted people in terms of intellect from birth. They can't get away with pretending they are dumber than everyone else.

This sounds like race discrimination against white people to me. I am offended.
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