[Sasa]

Conservatives tell lies - as capitalists they want cheap workers from abroad, and as politicians they denounce 'em to get the votes of mugs. Surely you don't look to these people for consistency or principle? That is a real mug's game. Japan's culture is so chauvinist they want to keep their wage-undercutters abroad, as far as they can.

I reckon the conservative as a political concept represents more than "capitalism". While you are right in terms of economics, they generally support relatively free market and weak welfare, the term "conservative" itself suggests it tends to "conserve", say existing social culture/faith. As a result it's not uncommon to see conservative taking the stance of Anti-immigration, in fear of the flood of aliens that potentially displaces the existing social atmosphere. Trump is not alone, almost all of GOP candidates support the restriction on H-1B work visas while Democratics call for a double of the quota. Similarly in the UK it's the Labour who welcomes EU migrants. That's also the reason conservative usually appear more patriotic, which is hardly associated with liberal.

And Japan is a very typical example of such conservative nation. Japan is not alone in East Asia, where all of the nations there are conservative and not surprisingly anti-immigration.

[Sasa]

Firstly, I agree with the facts of this. Trade with China goes both ways, and it's vital for both economies.

HOWEVER, I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. I submit that we stop referring to China as "communist" but as "authoritarian capitalist". This is a great term to explain other authoritarian regimes that are involved in western markets, but don't have any of the tenets of liberal democracy. Russia is the most predominant example of this type of governance.

I don't think Russia is alone as an authoritarian capitalist state that has an interest in weakening liberal democracy. Its actions in affecting the US election was only the most brazen of many, many operations they've taken to try and weaken public trust in democratic processes and political candidates. While China hasn't gone as far as Russia, it also puts a lot of import in preventing the spread of Western ideas and reinforcing a rhetoric of the dangers of American-style democracy to its people.

China also has done a lot of work in funding think tank organizations around the world, usually for the purpose of helping lobbying for authoritarian interests. So it's a situation where authoritarian states are able to exert a lot of influence on Western countries through avenues we don't think about, like business, patronage, education institutes, etc.

I don't think China will become just another capitalist country. Maybe it'll more fully integrate with the world economy, but there are inherent political interests in keeping their authoritarian state AND in encouraging eroding public trust in democracies. It might be very important for the future viability of liberal democracies for their governments to put more pressure on businesses to be disclose their relationships with authoritarian donors and partnerships.

All that said though, yes, a single chip maker isn't the end of the world.

I agree that the purchase of Imagination is a decisive breakthrough for Chinese empire. Although I need to remind you it may be the most successful harvest for China in semiconductor field, because almost no other remarkable IC designer would like/be allowed to be sold to China. Intel/AMD/NVIDIA/Qualcomm/TI etc are in the U.S., Toshiba/Sony from Japan, Samsung/LG from South Korea, TSMC/MTK from Taiwan, all of which are unattainable. A friend of mine worked in Toshiba Semiconductor and he told me last year their company was on sale, when they were considering bids between US and Taiwanese buyers. And Chinese firm wouldn't dream of buying Toshiba.

China has already evolved into a kind of authoritarian capitalism, and showed no sign of becoming a friendly country to the western world. What China eventually wants, we may not be clear. What we are clear of is that country is gradually expanding its influence (if not threats) on the west, and we have to be cautious before it's too late. Everyone could imagine what if the US disappear (or becomes unable to confront with China) one day, what the life would be like in a world led by Russia/China/North Korea/Iran/Cuba.

[Sasa]

In the west conservatives are liberals Sasa. Conservatives belive in the seperation of powers (a liberal idea), free markets (a liberal idea), most of them belive in secular government (a liberal idea), freedom of the press (a liberal idea) etc etc. You have sadly absobved the bizzare American fiction that consevatives oppose liberalism. In actual fact liberalism forms the basis of western conservative thought.

The concept of conservative / liberal is more than vague, in other words, it's always controversial and lack precise definition. Think about US and UK/Canada who tend to be conservative? I guess most people would say the US. But don't forget the American conservatism has its roots of anti-monarchism which was undoubtedly "liberal" at the time. While British/Canadians people were thought loyalists, another way to call conservatives. What would you say then, the then-liberal country appears more conservative today, vice versa.

So you could be right in a sense that New Zealand is more conservative than the U.S., as NZ still retains monarchy, which contrary to the common sense for most people.

[Decky]

it's not uncommon to see conservative taking the stance of Anti-immigration

Only at ellection time.

Once they are in power conservatives bring is as many immigrants as humanly possible because their capitalist masters benefit from mass immigration.

Conservatives are good at talking about stopping immigration, they are awful at actually doing anything whatsoever to achive it.

[Rich]

Cuckservatives and Social democrats cerainly support mass immigration, but with restrictions. The far left have consistently opposed all restrictions on immigration, claiming they are racist. Opposition to mass immigration has come from the nationalist right. In Britain Enoch Powell was on the right. The left opposed Enoch Powell's attempts to stop immigration as the left in America have opposed Trump's so called Muslim ban. In Britain, the National Front, the British National Party, the UK Independence Party, Britain First and the EDL, all the parties that have prioritised stopping immigration are on the right. Le Pen and the AFD are considered right. Ted Cruz is on the right.

Maybe you @Decky think we have too many Muslims in Britain but I'm not aware of one western leftie group that says that. Many on the right would like to express a more anti immigrant, policy than they already do, but they moderate their public stance because the left will call them Nazis and seek to beat them off the streets and deny their free speech.

[Decky]

Cuckservatives and Social democrats cerainly support mass immigration, but with restrictions. The far left have consistently opposed all restrictions on immigration, claiming they are racist.

Meanwhile in the world outside of your imagination...



... the left has a far more robust attitude to border security than the right. In the Soviet Union you not only needed a passport to travel abroad you even needed one to travel internaly.

Opposition to mass immigration has come form the nationalist right. In Britain Enoch Powell was on the right. The left opposed Enoch Powell's attempts to stop immigration as the left in America have opposed Trump's so called Muslim ban.

This would be the same Enoch Powel who imported thousands of nurses from the Caribbean into the UK while he was minister of health yes? As I said the right are very good at talking about opposing immigration but while in power they are as pro immigration as they come. Enoch is proof of this.

In Britain, the National Front, the British National Party, the UK Independance Party, Britain First and the EDL, all the parties that have prioritised stopping immigration are on the right. Le Pen and the AFD are considered right. Ted Cruz is n the right.

UKIP are pro immigration, they want to stop EU immigration and massivly increase comonwealth immigration, they want to bring in Pakistanis and Ugandans instead of Poles and Romanians. I wouldn't consider the BNP particually right wing, aside from the racist stuff everything they proposed was stole from pre Blair Labour manifestos.

[Ned Lud]

I reckon the conservative as a political concept represents more than "capitalism". While you are right in terms of economics, they generally support relatively free market and weak welfare, the term "conservative" itself suggests it tends to "conserve", say existing social culture/faith. As a result it's not uncommon to see conservative taking the stance of Anti-immigration, in fear of the flood of aliens that potentially displaces the existing social atmosphere. Trump is not alone, almost all of GOP candidates support the restriction on H-1B work visas while Democratics call for a double of the quota. Similarly in the UK it's the Labour who welcomes EU migrants. That's also the reason conservative usually appear more patriotic, which is hardly associated with liberal.

And Japan is a very typical example of such conservative nation. Japan is not alone in East Asia, where all of the nations there are conservative and not surprisingly anti-immigration.

British tradition is welcoming to those persecuted abroad, and the conservatives are constantly altering all British history has ever achieved to imitate the worst features of America. They regard the British working class as utterly alien, and would do anything to destroy it, especially by importing those who undercut wages, while ranting nonsense about what they plan to do, but don't. Japan was deeply happy with aliens when it could conquer and enslave them, as you know.

[Sasa]

Only at ellection time.

Once they are in power conservatives bring is as many immigrants as humanly possible because their capitalist masters benefit from mass immigration.

Conservatives are good at talking about stopping immigration, they are awful at actually doing anything whatsoever to achive it.

probably not just during elections. I can easily give a number of examples that conservatives are constantly opposing immigration, that's why they are called "conservative".
Don't forget the root of liberal - communism, which calls for the elimination of nationalism and abolish the border, Internationale, right?

[Sasa]

Meanwhile in the world outside of your imagination...



... the left has a far more robust attitude to border security than the right. In the Soviet Union you not only needed a passport to travel abroad you even needed one to travel internaly.



This would be the same Enoch Powel who imported thousands of nurses from the Caribbean into the UK while he was minister of health yes? As I said the right are very good at talking about opposing immigration but while in power they are as pro immigration as they come. Enoch is proof of this.



UKIP are pro immigration, they want to stop EU immigration and massivly increase comonwealth immigration, they want to bring in Pakistanis and Ugandans instead of Poles and Romanians. I wouldn't consider the BNP particually right wing, aside from the racist stuff everything they proposed was stole from pre Blair Labour manifestos.

In terms of Soviet Union, you've made a mistake I had too. You can't categorize the communists as "left". They are by no means the left. First of all they deny democracy & freedom and promote strong regulation from the authority. The current ruling party in China, Chinese communist is in fact a conservative party (far right fascism precisely).

And you are right the UKIP promote vetted immigration (almost no conservative party call for a close of immigration to be honest), they favor the eligible migrants (matched skilled people) rather than unrestricted immigration, and that's something in common with most conservatives in the world.

[Sasa]

British tradition is welcoming to those persecuted abroad, and the conservatives are constantly altering all British history has ever achieved to imitate the worst features of America. They regard the British working class as utterly alien, and would do anything to destroy it, especially by importing those who undercut wages, while ranting nonsense about what they plan to do, but don't. Japan was deeply happy with aliens when it could conquer and enslave them, as you know.

Time has changed and I need to remind you that refugees are indeed not as honest you perceive. So many people from those problem countries are buying the way for human trafficking and pretend to be victims. Australia recently deported a few Iranian asylum seekers who lied to the immigration agency. I'm pretty happy to see conservatives are rational enough to protect the nation, other than letting those garbage people flood our land.

As an atheist, I don't identify myself conservative, but I share some opinions with them.

[Decky]

probably not just during elections. I can easily give a number of examples that conservatives are constantly opposing immigration, that's why they are called "conservative".
Don't forget the root of liberal - communism, which calls for the elimination of nationalism and abolish the border, Internationale, right?

For the first claim have you any evidence?
The second claim in nonsense, communism hates liberalism. Have you ever heard of the cold war? It was a conflict between the socalist states of the world run by their communist parties (Soviet Union, East Germany etc) and the liberal capitalist states of the world like the USA, the UK and West Germany.

Communism and liberalism are totally opposed.

In terms of Soviet Union, you've made a mistake I had too. You can't categorize the communists as "left". they are by no means the left. First of all they deny democracy & freedom and promote strong regulation from the authority. The current ruling party in China, Chinese communist is in fact a conservative party (far right fascism precisely).

And you are right the UKIP promote vetted immigration (almost no conservative party call for a close of immigration to be honest), they favor the eligible migrants (matched skilled people) rather than unrestricted immigration, and that's something in common with most conservatives in the world.

The Soviet Union most certialy was left wing, they placed the working class into power over their own destiny and did not belive in the private ownership of the means of producation, distribution and exchange, they were the most left wing state that has ever existed on earth.

The party in control of China is called the Chinese Communist party not a fascist party. China kicked fascism out when they forced the former nationalist government into exile in Taiwan.

You are wrong about UKIP, they are a liberal capitialist party and want mass immigration as they know it will benfit big bussines, they just want it from another source (India, Pakistan, Uganda, New Zealand etc) instead of the current European source of mass immigration.

[Sasa]

For the first claim have you any evidence?
The second claim in nonsense, communism hates liberalism. Have you ever heard of the cold war? It was a conflict between the socalist states of the world run by their communist parties (Soviet Union, East Germany etc) and the liberal capitalist states of the world like the USA, the UK and West Germany.

Communism and liberalism are totally opposed.



The Soviet Union most certialy was left wing, they placed the working class into power over their own destiny and did not belive in the private ownership of the means of producation, distribution and exchange, they were the most left wing state that has ever existed on earth.

The party in control of China is called the Chinese Communist party not a fascist party. China kicked fascism out when they forced the former nationalist government into exile in Taiwan.

You are wrong about UKIP, they are a liberal capitialist party and want mass immigration as they know it will benfit big bussines, they just want it from another source (India, Pakistan, Uganda, New Zealand etc) instead of the current European source of mass immigration.

Want evidence of conservatives that oppose immigration? Australian One Nation/ Australian Conservative/ New Zealand First etc.
Communist hates liberals? Come on communists like to claim they are the most liberal and would liberate people in other countries. A undeniable history tells you communist and liberals(in western countries) share the same roots - the left wing movement in early 20th century, even today Jeremy Corby self identified as a Marxist. Bernie Sanders are frequently referred to as a communist too.

Why I said any communist country including Soviet Union are actually conservative? They rejects the fundamental principle of liberal/left wing - democracy and freedom, which is the soul of "left". If Soviet Union can be called left how about North Korea then, and how different if North Korea and Nazis Germany?
Conversely conservative had the tradition of anti-democracy, that's why they were called "loyalist", to defend their monarchy. Having said that in late 1700s, the US were liberal (left) while the UK & Canada were conservative/loyalist (right). The real interesting question is how those loyalists have become "left" these days?

China communist if not a fascist party? How do you define fascist, in my dictionary it means an authority use force to impose faith & brainwashing, arresting/killing dissents, and present threats to neighboring nations. They even force foreigners to "confess" in public, the thing only North Korea and ISIS could do. If such kind of authority should not be called fascist I don't know who deserve the title.

"UKIP, they are a liberal capitialist party and want mass immigration"
First UKIP wouldn't agree they are liberal.
Secondly they do prefer eligible migrants from English-speaking countries but not in mass scale. Please stop misinterpreting others' opinions if you are not aware of.

[Sasa]

Trump is a populist not a conservative. A conseravtive would want as many immigrants as posible to increase the profits of big bussines.



Indeed I would.



No, why would I? Liberalism is pro immigration (liberals belive in free markets, this means a free market in both goods and labour). Japan is so anti immgration precisley because it is one of the least liberal places in the developed world.

You finally admit that "Japan is so anti immgration precisley because it is one of the least liberal places in the developed world."
So tell me whether or not Japanese are conservative?

I'm surprised you don't understand Japan since they are more conservative than any western country.

[Decky]

I give up, you don't speak English fluently enough to have this debate. I don't mean that with any malice.

[Political Interest]

The British ruling elite dream of sitting and eating Peking duck with the new rich in China and pretending that this is some sort of friendship between China and England. The Chinese will not forgive the English for the humiliations of the 19th century. But it's all part of the great game and making as much money as possible.

[Sasa]

:lol:

I give up, you don't speak English fluently enough to have this debate. I don't mean that with any malice.

I don't mind you argue about my English proficiency, but it's pretty clear the point of the debate is what (instead of my English proficiency ): liberal or conservative, who tends to oppose mass immigration?

You use the execute "you English is not fluent enough" to avoid facing that question.

Unfortunately my English is good enough to know what you are thinking about.

[Sasa]

The British ruling elite dream of sitting and eating Peking duck with the new rich in China and pretending that this is some sort of friendship between China and England. The Chinese will not forgive the English for the humiliations of the 19th century. But it's all part of the great game and making as much money as possible.

That's right, in fact Chinese will not forgive any country that doesn't hail their communist dominance, not just UK, USA, Japan, Taiwan etc, the list goes on.

Apparently most businessmen never care about the long-term impact on their nations as well as the whole world, but just their own profits, that's why the governments need to do something, instead of promoting a "free market".

[Potemkin]

Apparently most businessmen never care about the long-term impact on their nations as well as the whole world, but just their own profits, that's why the governments need to do something, instead of promoting a "free market".

"The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them." - V.I. Lenin

[Sasa]

"The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them." - V.I. Lenin

Lenin was indeed right. China has been buying the world despite few people in the west really like China but their money.

The world so far is dominated by the U.S. not being a "free market" country. How could the U.S. become a super power if their firms like Google, Boeing, Lockheed Martin are free to be sold to China/Russia? The notion of "free market" can be feasible only in a world where all nations are like West European, Japan, Australia, etc, which proved unrealistic.