[Pants-of-dog]

That is why it is critical that we allow them to speak. Then they are forced to own their words. They are "on record". Then we attack their words rather than their person.

Sometimes.

Sometimes it makes more sense to attack the person. When the Nazis were shoving people into ovens, attacking their words is useless.

There is no one correct way to deal with racism and racists.

[Drlee]

Sometimes it makes more sense to attack the person. When the Nazis were shoving people into ovens, attacking their words is useless.

Oh for fuck sake. Give me a break.

Tell you what. If some speaker on a college campus tries to shove someone into an oven you have my permission to engage in fisticuffs.

There is no one correct way to deal with racism and racists.

Some ways are better than others.

Really POD. This post is beneath you.

[Pants-of-dog]

Tell you what...

When the young men in my high school town would cruise around looking for minorities to beat up, do you really think that they would have stopped if we had criticised their use of ethnic slurs?

[Drlee]

When the young men in my high school town would cruise around looking for minorities to beat up, do you really think that they would have stopped if we had criticised their use of ethnic slurs

You want to make some off topics comments? OK by me. We can discuss your criminal friends.

Nature? Nurture? If they had been raised properly, before they decided to undertake criminal acts, they would have had no inclination to do this in the first place. It is too bad the police did not find occasion to shoot them.

Now can we talk about free speech?

[Buzz62]

Interesting exchange guys.
POD...every adolescent gets picked on, for one reason or another.
Might it not be a good idea to actually grow up and get over it...like the rest of us do?
Maybe then you'd be more willing to live in reality...

[Pants-of-dog]

You want to make some off topics comments? OK by me. We can discuss your criminal friends.

Nature? Nurture? If they had been raised properly, before they decided to undertake criminal acts, they would have had no inclination to do this in the first place. It is too bad the police did not find occasion to shoot them.

Why do you assume that the white guys going around beating up "N***** and fags" are my friends?

Anyway, by bringing up the point about how their parents should have raised them properly, you are implicitly conceding my point, as you are basically explaining when attacking or criticising their speech is useful (i.e. before any violence starts) and when it is not (i.e. when they are alrgetting out of their car to beat up a single black guy).

Now can we talk about free speech?

Sure. Do you think that private individuals can limit the free speech of others?

---------------

Interesting exchange guys.
POD...every adolescent gets picked on, for one reason or another.
Might it not be a good idea to actually grow up and get over it...like the rest of us do?
Maybe then you'd be more willing to live in reality...

Why do you hate immigrants?

[Buzz62]

Why do you hate immigrants?

[Pants-of-dog]

That looks like the wall decal we have in the baby room.

The babies are immigrant and indigenous, so they are already targets of your feelings towards minorities.

And yet you have the free speech to say awful things about immigrants and indigenous people, like my babies.

[Buzz62]

That looks like the wall decal we have in the baby room.

The babies are immigrant and indigenous, so they are already targets of your feelings towards minorities.

And yet you have the free speech to say awful things about immigrants and indigenous people, like my babies.

Awwww...are we tear-jerking now...so cute.

Heads up POD. I don't have any problems with real and legal IMMIGRANTS. And if I'm not mistaken...it's YOU who howls for the natives to do really self-defeating horseshit. Not me. I'd rather they join the real world and be prosperous. Which reminds me...you never have answered one of my questions. "Do you send your kids to local schools and encourage them to do well in school?"

But please...continue to LIE and ignore evidence that you don't like.
Its so...intellectual.

And now, if you'll excuse me...
I think I'll go have a good cry...

[Pants-of-dog]

Awwww...are we tear-jerking now...so cute.

Heads up POD. I don't have any problems with real and legal IMMIGRANTS.

Sure you do. Most of your posts support deporting or otherwise punishing refugees. You even advocate ethnically cleansing Europe of certain immigrants at gunpoint.

And if I'm not mistaken...it's YOU who howls for the natives to do really self-defeating horseshit. Not me. I'd rather they join the real world and be prosperous. Which reminds me...you never have answered one of my questions. "Do you send your kids to local schools and encourage them to do well in school?"

Actually, you advocate forced assimilation, which has been shown to be one of the most destructive things for indigenous communities.

But please...continue to LIE and ignore evidence that you don't like.
Its so...intellectual.

And now, if you'll excuse me...
I think I'll go have a good cry...

What evidence? You interrupted a discussion on when to use violence against racism by telling me to "get over it", posted a pretty picture, and then misrepresented our positions on two other topics.

On topic, I would argue that the right to free speech exists for two separate but related reasons. One is to create a space for criticism of the government, which creates political accountability and therefore should ensure democracy. The second reason is to provide new ideas and new perspectives on old ones, helping society grow and create policies that are based on real facts.

Do you agree or disagree?

[Buzz62]

Sure you do. Most of your posts support deporting or otherwise punishing refugees. You even advocate ethnically cleansing Europe of certain immigrants at gunpoint.

Prove you can't exist in society, and you should be removed.!

Actually, you advocate forced assimilation, which has been shown to be one of the most destructive things for indigenous communities.

So...do you FORCE your kids to go the the schools of the "evil white guy"?

What evidence? You interrupted a discussion on when to use violence against racism by telling me to "get over it", posted a pretty picture, and then misrepresented our positions on two other topics.

Yes...Muslim Refugee handy work.
Pretty huh?

On topic, I would argue that the right to free speech exists for two separate but related reasons. One is to create a space for criticism of the government, which creates political accountability and therefore should ensure democracy. The second reason is to provide new ideas and new perspectives on old ones, helping society grow and create policies that are based on real facts.

Do you agree or disagree?

agree.

[Pants-of-dog]

Prove you can't exist in society, and you should be removed.!

...and you have applied this to whole groups of immigrants regardless of the actions of the individuals in these groups.

So...do you FORCE your kids to go the the schools of the "evil white guy"?

No, because I understand Canadian history. Forcing indigenous kids to go to white schools is literally our greatest human rights abuse ever.

Yes...Muslim Refugee handy work.
Pretty huh?

Wow. Not even complete sentences. Also handiwork is a single word. And the Islamophobic picture you posted accusing Muslim refugees of being rapists was in another thread. You can't even keep track of your memes.

agree.

Let us look solely at the first reason: keeping the government accountable.

Now, racist ideologies are inherently structured to reduce accountability by disenfranchising people of colour. So, if we are trying to increase government accountability, then we should logically oppose racist ideologies.

And if we allow the unrestricted dissemination of racist ideologies and ideas, we are directly allowing the undermining of the idea of accountability by allowing people to advocate for the removal of government accountability through racism.

So, there is an argument for limiting the free speech of racist ideologies if we wish to preserve or strengthen government accountability.

[Buzz62]

...and you have applied this to whole groups of immigrants regardless of the actions of the individuals in these groups.

Refugees. And yes. If they are not happy to merge with Canada's society and abide by its laws, here's the door.

No, because I understand Canadian history. Forcing indigenous kids to go to white schools is literally our greatest human rights abuse ever.

So where do they go to school? Do they?

Wow. Not even complete sentences. Also handiwork is a single word. And the Islamophobic picture you posted accusing Muslim refugees of being rapists was in another thread. You can't even keep track of your memes.

yes dear...

Let us look solely at the first reason: keeping the government accountable.

Now, racist ideologies are inherently structured to reduce accountability by disenfranchising people of colour. So, if we are trying to increase government accountability, then we should logically oppose racist ideologies.

OK lets say "people of a different physical appearance" instead of "colour". All races have experienced racism. But I see where you're headed...go on...

And if we allow the unrestricted dissemination of racist ideologies and ideas, we are directly allowing the undermining of the idea of accountability by allowing people to advocate for the removal of government accountability through racism.

Who says the government should be held accountable for racist ideas? Why is that "logical"? You can discourage racist thinking. But the law does not provide for policing racist thinking. Probably because, that would be impossible.

So, there is an argument for limiting the free speech of racist ideologies if we wish to preserve or strengthen government accountability.

But now you're talking about thought police. That's not only abhorrent, its impossible.

But here's the problem with your entire premise.
ISLAM is not a RACE.

[Pants-of-dog]

Refugees. And yes. If they are not happy to merge with Canada's society and abide by its laws, here's the door.

So we agree that you have a problem with refugees.

So where do they go to school? Do they?

How comfortable would you be if someone asked you to tell everyone on a public forum exactly where they can find their children most of the time?

yes dear...

As long as we agree that I did not ignore evidence because you presented no evidence, and as far as I can tell, no argument either.

OK lets say "people of a different physical appearance" instead of "colour". All races have experienced racism. But I see where you're headed...go on...

Who says the government should be held accountable for racist ideas? Why is that "logical"? You can discourage racist thinking. But the law does not provide for policing racist thinking. Probably because, that would be impossible.

I am not arguing about policing thoughts.

I am arguing that racist people want to take away the rights of others, and that by taking away the rights of certain races, the government becomes less accountable.

Like, for example, taking away the vote from black people.
This would mean that black people could not vote.
This would then mean that there is one less way for black people to hold the government accountable.
This would then mean that the government would be slightly less accountable overall.

Are you with me so far?

But now you're talking about thought police. That's not only abhorrent, its impossible.

I will get back to this. First, do you agree with the above?

But here's the problem with your entire premise.
ISLAM is not a RACE.

I never mentioned Islam.

[Buzz62]

So we agree that you have a problem with refugees.

Yes I have a problem with these refugees. I have been arguing that, based on what we see in Europe, they are dangerous. And now we've seen the danger come to our country. So you bet your ass I have a problem with them.

How comfortable would you be if someone asked you to tell everyone on a public forum exactly where they can find their children most of the time?

OK...I'll assume then, that they go to a public school and learn to be part of the Canadian society and culture.

As long as we agree that I did not ignore evidence because you presented no evidence, and as far as I can tell, no argument either.

You call me racist against Muslims. I point out that Islam is a religion, not a race.
You say that you never mentioned Islam. And that's just in this 2 page thread...

I am not arguing about policing thoughts.

I am arguing that racist people want to take away the rights of others, and that by taking away the rights of certain races, the government becomes less accountable.

But Islam is not a race.

Like, for example, taking away the vote from black people.
This would mean that black people could not vote.
This would then mean that there is one less way for black people to hold the government accountable.
This would then mean that the government would be slightly less accountable overall.

OK this is just silliness.

I never mentioned Islam.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes I have a problem with these refugees. I have been arguing that, based on what we see in Europe, they are dangerous. And now we've seen the danger come to our country. So you bet your ass I have a problem with them.

Right, so when you claim that you have no problem with immigrants, you are wrong, unless you incorrectly believe that refugees are not immigrants.

OK...I'll assume then, that they go to a public school and learn to be part of the Canadian society and culture.

Go ahead. No one cares what you assume about me.

You call me racist against Muslims. I point out that Islam is a religion, not a race.
You say that you never mentioned Islam. And that's just in this 2 page thread...

I never said you were racist against Muslims, nor did I mention them in this thread.

But Islam is not a race.

OK this is just silliness.

Why is it silly?

[Buzz62]

I am arguing that racist people want to take away the rights of others, and that by taking away the rights of certain races, the government becomes less accountable.

More games?

[Pants-of-dog]

So you have no logical rebuttals to my post.

Let us continue.

Now, because racist ideologies pose a threat to the basic tenet of government accountability, we could logically assume that the threat becomes more real and significant as racist ideologies become more widespread.

So, if we want to reduce the risk of not having an accountable government, we should limit the spread of racist ideologies.

Do you see any logical or factual errors so far?

[Buzz62]

So you have no logical rebuttals to my post.

Let us continue.

Now, because racist ideologies pose a threat to the basic tenet of government accountability, we could logically assume that the threat becomes more real and significant as racist ideologies become more widespread.

So, if we want to reduce the risk of not having an accountable government, we should limit the spread of racist ideologies.

Do you see any logical or factual errors so far?

I told you, you're talking about "thought police". An "ideology" is "thought".
And Islam...is not a race. I don't give a rat's-ass what colour a person is.
When you take refuge in a foreign land, its bad form to start raping the people and killing your hosts.

[Pants-of-dog]

I told you, you're talking about "thought police". An "ideology" is "thought".

And i told you that I am not discussing policing thoughts at all. I then explained the difference between that and what I was arguing. Ignoring what I said to repeat your strawman is not an argument ot rebuttal.

And Islam...is not a race. I don't give a rat's-ass what colour a person is.

Again, I said that I am not discussing Islam at all. Nor did I discuss you at any point.

When you take refuge in a foreign land, its bad form to start raping the people and killing your hosts.

Yes, but we do not think all white people are like that just because of the history of colonialism.

Now, since none of this has anything to do with what I said, we shall assume that you have no intelligent criticism or rebuttal to my claims.

------------

So, we have looked at why liberal democracies would be justified in limiting the free speech of racist ideologies in order to safeguard accountability of government.

We will look at the second reason for free speech, and how it may or may not apply to racist ideologies, in the next post.