Most sheep-like nations? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By anna
#14856683
QatzelOk wrote:Not really.


Does that translate to sorta-kinda?

But I would argue that a lot of sheep-like qualities are imposed by the group and not just from the top. Sheep are influenced by their shepherd, but also by their percieved need to be just like the other sheep, which, in human societies, is imposed by everyone around you.

So leftwing sheep-like behavior may have more of a tendency to be driven by peer pressure, at least when they arise in non leftwing-run states.


Going with your qualifier "non leftwing-run states," do you think peer pressure is relegated to leftwingers only? In-group virtue-signaling is human behavior that crosses all groups. Humans in general want to fit in, and they learn pretty quickly from the cultural cues they receive what to say and how to act in order to fit in.

It's fascinating and not a little horrifying to see how groups groom prospective members through various propaganda and group unifying techniques, so it's not just the unconscious or unschooled, natural social cues which are effective, it's also the intentional and calculated cues meant to reinforce in-group boundaries.

In short, anyone can be a sheep, but only some have the capacity to be a black sheep. Long live the black sheep. :)
#14856819
anna wrote:Going with your qualifier "non leftwing-run states," do you think peer pressure is relegated to leftwingers only?

Not at all. I just wanted to remind you that the sheep-like nature of Modern man has been imposed on him by both conservatives seeking to preserve their entitlement, and reformers seeking new sources of easy money for their own gangs.

The erasing of human liberty in the last few millennia has been a left-right project - is all I'm suggesting.
#14856837
Not at all. I just wanted to remind you that the sheep-like nature of Modern man has been imposed on him by both conservatives seeking to preserve their entitlement, and reformers seeking new sources of easy money for their own gangs.


Just a cautionary comment. The US has no significant left at all. We are a two party system, enshrined now by almost universal gerrymandering. We have a right-wing party (republican) which "services" people who wish to see themselves as conservative and a paleoonservative party (democrat) which "services" people who wish to think of themselves as progressive. (The word liberal having been made radioactive.)

Both parties are completely in the service of "big money". They each have their constituents and cover story but as once was said about the Vietnam war, "the idea is to almost win the war". The big-money people demand of both parties the same end result. That is the maintenance of the status quo with regard to the wealthy/corporate class. Once that is secured there is some nominal power to affect the administrivia of daily life but the first principle is to service capitalists.

This was not always the case. There were once very high taxes on the upper classes but even then much of the money went back to them after passing through the hands of our large middle class. Now the notion is to simply remove the middle man from the equation.

The US is very sheep like on both sides. More than others? Certainly more than France or the UK. Perhaps less than Germany and China. We live in a global oligarchy. We are almost all sheep.


.
#14856839
Drlee wrote:The US is very sheep like on both sides. More than others? Certainly more than France or the UK. Perhaps less than Germany and China. We live in a global oligarchy. We are almost all sheep.


Drlee Sheep Index (so far)
From most sheep-like to least

1. China
2. Germany
3. USA
4. UK
5. France

Image

---

Also, here's an international list of 'Economic Freedom:
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

Do any of their criteria have a relationship to the sheep-like-ness of the various nations mentionned?

---

And then there's this:

Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world
Have mercy on us
(Christian prayer)
#14869581
I think that first, we have to think about the actual definition of sheep-like nation.
In the first case mentioned, America is depicted as a sheep-like minded country probably because of the common bias that people have, like being a consumer society that directs its demand pretty much wherever the elite guides it. Nevertheless this is true, and a lot of the products that the people consume are all part of a discourse trying to force the mass to keep buying, the American people still have a lot to say. We live in a time of freedom, when subcultures, expressions of cultures opposed or just different to the dominant one, flourish. Moreover, the American people themselves can influence the choice of products that they are going to consume thanks to the big weight that their preferences have. People can literally choose what they're going to be offered by choosing to watch it, and this is a big power.
On the other hand though, we have the so dubbed 'sheep-like' nations, where labor it's cheaper, and the general knowledge is that everything is worst there. Well, this is more an education problem. In economics, this is called human capital, and is one of the means that can drive an economy to growth thanks to the possibility to vary production and increase it making it also cheaper. This is, for example, what is convincing the Sultan of Oman, Quabus bin Sa'id Al Sa'id, to invest into a plan to modernize his country, starting with education, to diversify production that has become too dependent on oil. These are not for sure dumb people that follow a leader like sheeps. They just trying to struggle in a world where whoever does not catch up, dies. They want to hold on to their traditions, evolving, and modernizing in a way that is different from what we've ever seen, it's their path.
Honestly, I don't personally think neither of these countries should be dubbed sheep-like, but I imagine that some people are going to have a different point of view from mine. I hope this whole thing is a good point to start a reflection though.
LorenzoPeaceCity
#14871948
LorenzoPeaceCity wrote:I think that first, we have to think about the actual definition of sheep-like nation.


The nation in which the people most mindlessly follow trends without thinking?
The nation where personal philosophy has been eradicated the most?
The nation whose citizens have the least inclination and-or time to think about life and make independent choices?

Here's a quote from Joseph Brant and a link to get your creative juices flowing:

"In the government you call civilized, the happiness of the people is constantly sacrificed to the splendor of empire."

link
By SSDR
#14972365
The most sheep-like nations are socially collective. Areas in the world that fall under this category the most are Africa, the Muslim World, Eastern Asia, and parts of the Balkans.
#14980922
SSDR wrote:The most sheep-like nations are socially collective. Areas in the world that fall under this category the most are Africa, the Muslim World, Eastern Asia, and parts of the Balkans.

It's intersting that you mention "the Muslim World" since the worship of "being a sheep" is such an important part of Christian ideology.

[youtube]3SXjw_DFFjE[/youtube]

It is Jesus, the prophet, who is the lamb of God, and Christians are expected to imitate Jesus in this.

Likewise, the oldest books of the Bible are written from the point of view of Shepherds who "spoke to God."

And God told them that humans (other humans) are like sheep: stupid animals that need to be herded (by superior shepherd humans) in order to make money off of these dumb wool-and-mutton producting animals.

This "lamb of God" isn't part of Islam. The submission of Islam is about being submissive to one's education, and not one's instincts. Which is also problematic, but not sheep-like.
By SSDR
#14981185
@QatzelOk, Well I am an atheist so I am not against a particular religion. But, the Islamic world tends to be more socially collective and family oriented than the Christian world.
#14981710
SSDR wrote:@QatzelOk, Well I am an atheist so I am not against a particular religion. But, the Islamic world tends to be more socially collective and family oriented than the Christian world.

Large communist movements have come out of Catholic, Buddhist, Eastern Orthodox, and Muslim communities, as well as the Jewish community.

Collectivism is more universal than you make it sound. But working towards the betterment of the group... is not sheep-like. Don't confuse group cohesion with passive order-following. They're not the same.

Sheep don't care about the group. They don't even think about the group or what they could do to improve it. They just do what they're told, and follow the leader. If this kind of non-conscious follower-behavior hurts their group, so be it. They are unable to express their own opinion or act in a way that is different from the group.
#14981892
@QatzelOk, Yes socialist movements came from various religious societies, however, religion was used to keep the people from rebelling against slavery and oppression.

But in a pure communist society, society is very individualistic, being free from family, religious values, and social classes. People would live their lives how they want, rather than what their owners, such as relatives or private employers, want.
#14982070
SSDR wrote:@QatzelOk, Yes socialist movements came from various religious societies, however, religion was used to keep the people from rebelling against slavery and oppression.

But in a pure communist society, society is very individualistic, being free from family, religious values, and social classes. People would live their lives how they want, rather than what their owners, such as relatives or private employers, want.

The other non-sheep-like element of communism is that, once everyone has access to advanced education, everyone must get involved in public consultations in order to determine policy.

This can't happen in a nation of sheep who just want to graze (watch media) and listen for orders from above. Equality of means and educational opportunity leads to equality in decision making for the group.

Our current capitalist system of "experts and authorities" (who often secretly profit from various business ventures) is based on the ignorant serf model (sheep waiting for orders from people wearing colorful badges).
By SSDR
#14982121
@QatzelOk, Well I do advocate for a socialist State. A large socialist state must exist, so that those who don't want to get involved in public consultations to determine policies, don't have to. Also, if technology one day is advanced enough, AI could determine all policies, since AI doesn't think emotionally like how humans do.
#14982172
SSDR wrote:@QatzelOk, Well I do advocate for a socialist State. A large socialist state must exist, so that those who don't want to get involved in public consultations to determine policies, don't have to. Also, if technology one day is advanced enough, AI could determine all policies, since AI doesn't think emotionally like how humans do.

AI is being developed by emotional humans, so it will be flawed like all our technologies, and it will be used to violent ends, like all our technologies.

The people who benefit most from technology are the moral idiots, who benefit from each tech by committing "crimes that haven't been invented yet."

Sheep rarely get together and discuss, in an open and non-judgemental way, where to go eat grass next. They just follow whatever technology is given to them to follow.

So if you're excited about producing even more wool and mutton with your flawed human body and mind, then you should be excited about technology.
By SSDR
#14982306
@QatzelOk, Well if the AI was developed into a perspective that is for the masses in a socialist society, then the AI would have no elite, flawed, nor profit driven objectives.
#14982309
SSDR wrote:@QatzelOk, Well if the AI was developed into a perspective that is for the masses in a socialist society, then the AI would have no elite, flawed, nor profit driven objectives.

And if mankind were on a trajectory that would improve lives and ensure long-term survival, we wouldn't be experimenting on ourselves with new tech all the time. The diving into each profitable (for some) technology is Russian Roulette, and we are already seeing past tech "solutions" killing the world.

Sheep don't care about what happened in the past. They just hear the main sheep say: "Baah Baah A.I.!" and they follow. They just follow the usual suspects, even if the usual suspects are obviously (to others) heading towards a cliff.

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